[EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

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Antitheus
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#76

Post by Antitheus » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:42 am

Because it's making the game easier. If the sides would nuke themselves, why bother with playing the mission? We could just wait until they're scraped. It's have no sense from the level design view (except nuking the Alliance - if they're going to somehow help the player).

We could multiply the possibilities but it's a game and it should be designed as one (to make it gradually harder not easier). While playing original Campaign all of the sides are going to crush you (Am - attacked by Russians, Legion and Alliance + Arabian attack after commies are defeated; Ru - Legion, Am and Alliance; Alliance - Americans + Russians [anyway, why they doesn't attack their bases? They're main forces after all; is Alliance so important? - the answer is simple: level design]).

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#77

Post by jarmok » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:00 pm

I personaly don't see reason for betraying Alliance after everyone else is defeated. Maybe if you were nice to them in previous missions as well they will just stand down and buy siberite from you after you capture motherload. Are 2 different endings for this mission a problem? If you have Kozlov go nukes or ally with Alliance.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#78

Post by McBenn » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:20 pm

It's been stated before and you graze the subject here: What is Legion actually gonna do after having won the war? The scripts from Altar don't state this clearly. The closest you get is this:
she begins the brave new world where she as hope that people can turn their backs on hatred, can change, if for no other reason that because she has.
The essence is that she doesn't want to destroy the siberite because it can be used for good, and she hopes and belives that humanity will do so. To that end a possible plan for Heike could be to evenly distribute the siberite around the planet so everyone gets there "fair share".
This assumed, Legion and Alliance could probably go along nicely. Alliance also thinks that siberite should belong to everyone and not a single nation. They are just more interested in the properties and potential of siberite as a mineral here and now than what to do with it in a future perspective. Am I wrong?

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#79

Post by Antitheus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:09 pm

Yeah, the Altar's idea for the Legion seems to be copied from the Alliance variant ;<
Imho they should use their secure position (on the motherlode) to blackmail the sides of the conflict. "You want some? Pay us (they'll lead a comfortable life). You don't agree with us? You won't get any of it (or eventually we'll blow it if we want to)".
Legion could use the Alliance or cooperate with them - it doesn't matter as long as their goal is common (to force the main sides to lay their weapons down and take the control of the motherlode), but then? If the Alliance haven't got enough gun-power, Legion would be taking the advantage. Alliance will probably pay for the big share of the motherlode (they'll distribute is as thy want to) - imho.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#80

Post by McBenn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:07 pm

Pay with what? This is prehistoric time. The reason why Legion is willing to work for resources like crates and oil in some situations is to gain power to further their own interests. The idea of blackmailing when it comes to the motherlode just doesn't seem to fit with the the scraps Altar provided.

I guess the goals of Legion and Alliance are very alike but they differ in their means to reach that goal. Alliance through dialogue and diplomacy; Legion through deception and raw power.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#81

Post by Antitheus » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:11 pm

McBenn wrote:Pay with what? This is prehistoric time.
With resources. They could barter, ya know.
McBenn wrote:The idea of blackmailing when it comes to the motherlode just doesn't seem to fit with the the scraps Altar provided.
Like I said, the Altar's idea for the Legion ending is not fitting its image, sketched in the Original Campaigns. Imho their interests could be presented like this: personal gain > common good. If we just present the ending with "love, peace and stuff", it won't, in my opinion, fit the plot. Heike was changed after being a Russian captive, but she could carry out with her plan by dosing the Siberite (for a charge) - no one would have the predominant part of it, so in the future the balance will be somehow maintained. We shouldn't reduce the interests of Legion to image of Heike. It's being composed form the people, with different interests and views.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#82

Post by McBenn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:06 pm

Antitheus wrote:We shouldn't reduce the interests of Legion to image of Heike. It's being composed form the people, with different interests and views.
You have a point there. There may be more people in Legion with the same view as Heike, but I think the majority don't really have an opinion of what to do, should Legion win the war. They just joined Legion out of sheer frustration and resentment of the Arabs. Unlike the Americans and the Russians they thought they could get back to the future so now that they have realized they can't, they have no purpose, no goal. Two common ways of fighting off such meaninglessness of life is to blame it on others making revenge become your new drive, or dismiss the feeling with recurring short term goals which in this case would be "the next mission". In both cases people get a problem when the war is over. What then? In an extreme case this could lead to people starting to fight each other for what would seem like unreasonable reasons, the true reason being that they just need an outlet for their frustration of not being able to get back to the future. This is where Alliance gets very interesting. They have carried out extensive research on alien technology which could possibly lead to a ticket home to the future. I think many Legion folks would be very interested in this, hence full cooperation with Alliance is very likely.

So if we say we have those two groups of people the ending would be a mix of Heike-minded-people rejoicing, and other hoping they are not trapped in the past after all.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#83

Post by SW94 » Sat May 03, 2014 7:48 pm

I noticed that in Legion's missions didn't appeared probably three important characters, namely Evelyn Lockhart - engineer, Dwayne Quinones - mechanic and Dr. Aviradze Aziz-Diul - scientist.
Maybe their put in 15th mission as the people who want to join the Legion.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#84

Post by McBenn » Sun May 04, 2014 1:21 pm

Yup, sounds like a plan :)


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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#85

Post by nadwrazliwosc_zebow » Mon May 05, 2014 4:28 pm

But Aviradze is a bad idea. I think about him as the closest to sheiks scientist who works for himself, not for money, and he wouldn't be interested in betraying yellow guys or coming back home. Nobody in Legion would probably take it.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#86

Post by McBenn » Mon May 05, 2014 9:42 pm

Agreed. He stayed with the Arabs because there he has the best basis for carrying out his research. As long as he can delve into some monkey-stuff he's a happy man :P

Btw I love when you post something on the forum. Your long name expands the columns on the whole page :P

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#87

Post by 0dd1 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:42 pm

Is the mission planning still open for suggestions? Hope I’m not too late.
I've read through and here are some suggestions:

The propsed "defensive" strategy of Russians:
Spoiler:
Why is it assumed that Russians know that moterlode can’t be nuked? As I recall, in the campaign, the Alliance leader used some discretion when informing JMM of the chain reaction –obviously they wouldn’t want to give the Russians an advantage. Even so, how can anyone be sure that Powell won’t nuke them anyway, as soon as situation becomes worse than desperate? There was also something about contaminating siberite using artifacts and even if it would not be so in this mission, Russians would still want to destroy the Alliance when their siberite plants start blowing up – if nothing else, to stop them from developing more suprising suprises.
The point is, making Russians go on strict defensive seems a little unjustified.
On diplomacy:
Spoiler:
The idea that Heike would even try to directly negotiate at this point seems a poor one, except maybe with the Alliance. I mean, after all the killing done, nobody would really trust anybody to be completely honest. The few proposed lines look fair, but to extend this, I would suggest a little different approach.
Remember “friend” from the campaign? What if a supposed traitor, would be saying exactly what Heike orders him to? The “friend” in campaign was contacting both Americans and Russians so it could open dialogue lines - the interested sides don’t even have to be honest about sparing him in return for info (and likely aren’t) , all that it takes, is to make them believe “friend’s” story about wanting to defect and then acting on information (s)he provides – that way the player could benefit spreading false (or half-true) information.

For example, if the player allies with Alliance the “friend” could simply inform Powell that Legion is close to completion of siberite bomb, and planning on blowing up the motherlode first. If the player is convincing enough, that should change priority of Powell’s targets, making him attack Arabian forces (I assume I’m thinking on the correct map), to get through to Legion – thus the player would buy some time off for the Alliance.
Another example would be: (mis)informing Americans or Arabians of Russian movements. Since they have no direct contact with the Russian base, they have no way of confirming it, and the result would depend on player’s “diplomacy”. If they buy the info, it could either put them at ease (slowing down the attacks a bit) or make them more desperate (launching quick, poorly planned strikes, expending resources, maybe even including people in regular attacks), or maybe redirectnig their attacks. Same trick could be pulled off with the Russians.
On map layout:
Spoiler:
Looking at proposed map makes me think very poorly of Powell and Omar as commanders. Is there really, any real reason why they would choose to set camp with two bases between them and motherlode, instead of takeing the time to go around, approaching it from west or north? This is especially true for Omar – as his only goal is not to defeat everyone but only to get his scientists to motherlode and spend just a few minutes on it. If it really is the case, that sources available at hand and/or terrain are the decisive factors, the least they could do is to create some sort of support base(es) of spare/non-essential personnel. Naturally, two (or more) bases wolud gather more resources than just one, and open posibilities of attack from multiple directions. It would be located farther away from the fighting near moterlode, therefore not in immediate danger, but able to create continuous convoys of war vehs/cargo bays that would engage the enemy from different direction/deliver resources or reinforcements. I’m thinking of the same idea as in campaign AM15: continuous attack of ru magenta from south as well as the red guys, and if there were only more people left in Kappa, Joan could have brought to game more than a single squad.

So it could look like this: a squad of cyan and orange vehs spawning at some particular locations (such as north or nort-east of motherlode), attacking Russians, legion or maybe even alliance.
Do it!

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#88

Post by McBenn » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:02 pm

* The propsed "defensive" strategy of Russians
As the setup and dialogues are now everyone is aware of the risk of sending a siberite rocket into and/or contaminating the motherlode. Roth sure likes to share information. That being said the Russians aren't going to be totally passive and just rely on the siberite bomb to nuke people. They will attack both the player and Alliance. And in late game they will do that using behemoths as well.
There is, however, an issue with Omar. Given that the Russians know they are sitting on a ticking bomb and they also know that Omar doesn't care for the consequences of contaminating the motherlode, the Russians ought to defend also the part of the motherlode outside their base. They can't just depend on the player defending it (although they know Legion doesn't want to see the motherlode blown up either). A small base or some vehicular defences I think will do the trick.

* On diplomacy
It's funny how things develop as you create a mission, especially when writing dialogues. It's usually not until then I realize what works and what doesn't. Heike isn't going to directly negotiate with everyone but some bargains are gonna go here and there. E.g. the Russians can ask to hand over Kozlov (if he/she has him from 14a_cont2) in exchange for a truce.
Your idea with planting false information with this "friend" I really nice, but I think the mission is gonna be bloated if that should be included as well. I would like to save that for some mission in the pro-Arab part of the campaign.

* On map layout
Yeah, I don't think there's anything defending this. Why on earth would Powell build a base so Alliance blocks him from reaching the motherlode. And even more absurd: Why would Omar build a base at all? He just wants to contaminate the motherlode, not defeat everyone. A one-time large scale attack seems his best choice. I have no good arguments why they would do as they do. It just makes a good mission (I hope). A couple of mitigating factors are that the Arab scientists trying to contaminate the motherlode spawn from outside the map and approach from different directions suggesting Omar has one or more bases farther away from the motherlode site as you say. Also in late game Omar is gonna go for the all-in attack (aided by Gensher if the player didn't kill him in 13a).


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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#89

Post by vanimpe » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:00 pm

Maybe in mission 15, after killing Sheikh, rest of living Arabs should join Heike (mainly important heroes like Aviradze, Paul Khattam etc.)? They don't have sense to fight when their commander and employer died. The reason for what they are in the past is only CASH. In the contrast, to the Russians which fight for the country and ideology.

And what is really important, it is the same situation like Legion in Russian and American camp, when the rest of this soldiers join Burlak/Macmillan. Aviradze should say Heike about surrender and joining to Heike.

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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 Legion

#90

Post by 0dd1 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:57 am

I made a similar point on owsupport on previous missions, but I later realized that the reason this character independence seemed off, is because no such thing happens in the original campains. If You think back, hardly any of the characters controlled by the player is leaving his side. Gossudarov doesn't take any of the "player's" scientists with him in ru11, neither does Roth (except for Cath Simms) and none of the characters can refuse (unless there isn't room) to join the Alliance along with the main character. Paul Khattam is the only real exception. So on second thought, it makes more sense to let some of the characters go, a little independence here and there will make it less look like everything is revolving around Heike.

To Your point: it's not just about a reason to fight, Heike may simply not trust people who had choosen to side with Omar and Gensher. Recall that in two previous missions, there was some rather decisive "selection" of membership. Besides, it is unclear wheather all they were fighting for, at this point, was money. If that were the case they would have join legioned the legion before. It's the Legion, that is fighting for their own, Arabs to the contrary do have an ideology - destroy the siberite, and anyone who chooses to side with them over the legion apparently shares that idea.
As for Aviradze and others, it's not that unreasonable, but they may not even be in that base and it might do a little wrong to the balance of the mission.

I did bring up the idea of surrendering on owsupport, but McBenn decided it was unnecesary (and rightly so, after few tweaks) though I did get the impression Arabs were more "silent" than the other enemies. Maybe a little something could be added, but even if there was a surrendering at the end, it would be more sensible of Heike to accept and just let them go, rather than taking them in.
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