[EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Dział poświęcony projektowi Arabian Campaign

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0dd1
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

Actually it only took several hours throughout a week or so, I prepared an empty map with a timer appearing every time something was constructed or researched/produced, and then literally build the base and recorded the values. And I mostly only estimated the vehicles part basing on the diferences between engines and controls.
I took the time to look at times because we said before that it would be good to give the player only limited amount of technologies to research for the last mission. But how would that look? Wouldn't it be a little unnatural to disable techs after some others are completed? The only way I can think of is limiting time of the first part of Ar15, so there's time to do only some techs, and if the player stays over that time, then there will be more fortifications on the second stage, or something like that. In that respect having control over how long the artifact techs should take will also be helpful.

Wether the amount of resources to gather is high would depend on mission time i think. I assumed it would take about 30min in the txt file, and it seemed ok considering all these resources are supposed to be scatered in bases all over the map. But in case it's just me, I'd say decrease the amount by a third (I mean let Omar gather that amount), and maybe further for lower difficulties.

We said that Farmer and Kozlov are stealing bomb plans from their research facility, which is that southern base. You don't think player's presence there would get in the way?

As for the texture, I was thinking some compromise could be reached considering there's still time before making Ar14 even begins. If we could reach a complete plan, down to secondary objactives and medals, bases and units placement, general terrain features etc. then a map could be created in accordance to it. Of course that's all assuming someonw will commit to that.
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McBenn
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

As of the limited amount of technologies, yes it would feel artificial to disable some techs so the only way would be to limit the time. I'm just having a feeling that it's gonna be difficult to make that chime with the player optionally attacking Alliance and stealing their artifacts. As your research points out it doesn't take that long to research all techs if you commit a couple of lvl 10 scis to it.

I just thought at first glance the numbers looked a bit scary but perhaps it's not that bad when it comes down to it. But we have the option to lower the amount to gather, if needed.

I imagined Kozlov running away on his own with the plans and then meeting up with Farmer somewhere else (he is never actualy present on the map - that's just the story). Perhaps Farmer was meant to attack the area as a distraction but unknowningly Heike ended up doing just that. That would also explain why Gordon is in the vicinity.

I'm still skeptical but with sufficiently close cooperation between the map creator and the mission creator I suppose it should be possible.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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Heh, yeah cooperation usually involves someone to cooperate with, and beside the two of us that hasn't been the case lately.

So Kozlov steals the plans shortly after Heike arrives in the area? Didn't think of it that way but it sounds good. I think in this case it would fit better to have Gordon (story-wise) be delegated by Farmer to cause some damage as a distraction for Kozlov. Then Gordon detects Heike and pulls out, optionally leaving some of their equipment for her. That could be like some vehicles (sib bombs?), kamikazes or mines they secretly placed in one of Russian bases that could be detonated at Heike's command.
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Adapted the map a little. Would it not be interesting if the bases in lower corners can be reached only by teleports? It only demands that the exits are replaced when the teleport is taken over and some warning before destroying it, while some people are still there, should be in place.
When it comes to linking bases by teleport, I think it's only logical to place exits on base entrance, where the defences are thickest instead of base centre, so that if one base is taken over it does not autmatically doom the other. Having them in pattern A->B->C... can also help I think. In case of the small bases, keeping the exit away from the teleport means that it's personnel could evacuate (or that a trapped player unit would not have such an easy time escapng back) when the turrets go down.
The exits could be made a little more convenient on lower difficulties though.
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McBenn
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

Well as you undoubtly know by now you have to dedicate quite some time to get a satisfying result and I understand if someone is not up for that kind of commitment. But we are not exactly handing out flyers asking for help either.
0dd1 wrote: Would it not be interesting if the bases in lower corners can be reached only by teleports? [...]
That's an interesting concept. As you say we just have to make sure no player unit is trapped.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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Some further thougths:

Main goal: Destroy most or all bases on map before time limit, which should be 20? 30? 40min?
Question: What happens if the player is fast egnough to destroy all bases much before that? Having Omar calling in about Gensher ambush after all bases are destroyed, means the player would have to purposely leave one intact until he has egnough resources to send. And in case the time limit is strictly obeyed, it makes no sense they should just wait around in enemy teritory unless they have a reason to stay, so the gathering of resources must be a main objective (with secondary being gathering lots of them) unless something else can be devised for that.
Question: What about the escort? If the transport should work as I suggested then we need to be clear on how many people are to escort it. I specifically mean that it would make sense to send fewer people through the teleport (letting the player keep more people) than the longer way, but in case both routes are used (like because the teleport was destroyed too soon) then the player has to send two separate escorts. That may be taking away too many people.We can avoid this complication by waiting with the transport untill all resources are gathered or time limit is reached, regardless of what route is used.

Should the last medal be for destroying everything? According to the plot, since those are research/production facilities that are left lightly guarded, seems like there would be a lot of civilians there to kill. Maybe it's just me, but such slaughter seems to fit with the Arabians.
How about extending such medal to wiping out all the personnel as well as the buildings? And making them evacuate at some point, to make it more challenging?

How mobile the Russians should be? Story-wise the bases are meant to have only skeleton soldier crew and very little mobile force. I'm getting the feeling it would be better if the player had to hunt down some cargos moving through the map to get some of the resources, but how would it be justified? Would it not be strange to have them go through an area where ther's a clear enemy presence. Coud that be more like a guarded (lightly) convoys?

Speaking of limited mobility. It makes sense for Russians to gather some tanks to take down a captured teleport, but I just realised it would be simpler to just change it's exit (especially seeing how easily you can do it in-game). Would it be reasonable to make them escort some scientst(s) rather than attack, and have him reset the exit once he gets sufficiently close?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

0dd1 wrote:Main goal: Destroy most or all bases on map before time limit, which should be 20? 30? 40min?
Whatever time fits the size of the map and the chosen difficulty.
0dd1 wrote:Question: What happens if the player is fast egnough to destroy all bases much before that?
Yes ofc as you say gathering resources should be a main objective but gather a lot a secondary. About the calling in I think a hybrid is best: Omar calls about Gensher after a predetermined amount of time but he also does shortly after the player has destroyed everything (in that case Heike is likely to call Omar first and he then informs her about Gensher). The problem with resources here, as you point out, comes from the "dynamic" resources, i.e. the resources not present on the map from the second the mission starts (examples of "static" resources would be resources in depots, crates from dismantling stuff etc.). If no crates spawn on the map then that's one dynamic resource less. Cargo bay convoys is another dynamic resource but a good idea in my opinion. But to minimize it's impact we could settle for only one, big convoy which appears around mid-game. That's also easier to justify story-wise.
0dd1 wrote:Question: What about the escort?
I sounds logical that you would need to send fewer people as escort if you use the teleporter and it gives the player a nice bonus if he/she manages to use the teleporter. Like with the "ordinary" route Heike would probably send all cargo bays in one batch (makes it easier to defend them) so it's eaither through teleporter or not - not both. But there may be a problem with the defending of the teleporter. What if the player finds the teleporter way before the mission is over? Would you have to defend it continuously? If so then the player (knowing the mission) can just wait with finding it until the mission is almost over. But it seems logical the player would at least leave some people to make sure the Russians won't do anything to incapacitate the teleporter. If we go for the one-burst-attack when should it happen? As soon as the player finds the teleporter? In that case why do the Russians just give up on it after that?
0dd1 wrote:Should the last medal be for destroying everything?
Sounds reasonable.
0dd1 wrote:Speaking of limited mobility. It makes sense for Russians to gather some tanks to take down a captured teleport [...]
That would also be a viable approach although a more suicidal one from Russian prespective. If you must get a scientist near enough without sending him to his death then most of the player units must be wiped out and then why not just destroy the teleporter anyway?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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What if the player finds the teleporter way before the mission is over? Would you have to defend it continuously? If so then the player (knowing the mission) can just wait with finding it until the mission is almost over.
At the moment I see three ways:
- One burst isn't a bad idea and it would make sense because the Russians are not supposed to have too much force here. The reason it doesn't repeat is simply because they don't have the resources or otherwise can't afford such a production. The problem is the timing if the player decides to leave the teleport base till the very end. Then the Russians would bust in and go directly for the teleport the minute player takes the base (because the mission is at the time limit already, so it has to be triggered right now), and I think it's kind of unnatural.
- We could make it necessary to go to that base for some reason, or make it have some critical amount of some resource, so that the player has to take that warehouse (and trigger the teleport dialogue) or else it's impossible to get the medal for gathering resources, or something like that.
- We could make it all known to the player from the beginnig, and say Heike should hurry to take over the teleport before they tamper with it. At some point in time the Russians would change the exit and make it useless, so it would have to be taken over early in game. Obviously the problem is how would Heike know all about the teleport. The scout I created for Ar13 could explain all that, seeing how he was around when New Samarkand was attacked and had time to scout around before Heike arrived. I don't know how to fill that gap in case he isn't there, something she found in the stoled documents perhaps? They didn't have teleports back then, but not long after that Russians heve developed their lesser space shift techs (Ar11), so she could find some future plans for the teleport in the documents? Alternatively, we could move back to your idea of giving the player more people in UPF reinforcements in Ar12, for helping Gensher in Ar10, and make the scout presence mandatory.


Another thing: should gathering extra documents result in having some parts of the map (bases) uncvered? Is there any room for including the spared Russians form Ar10, or even Burlak?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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I like the one-burst-attack the best. After that the Russians will do no more attempts at disabling/destroying it because, as you say, they can't afford it. About the timing we can just make it so if the player finds the teleporter too late it will simply already have been disabled.
The stolen documents may indicate something about teleporters but nothing decisive. When Heike finds the first teleporter this could be said and that's how they easily deduce how a teleporter works.
0dd1 wrote:should gathering extra documents result in having some parts of the map (bases) uncvered?
As in Ar10? Well yeah sure. Should be mentioned in some dialogue though, I think.
0dd1 wrote:Is there any room for including the spared Russians form Ar10, or even Burlak?
Hmm let's see. Heike meets the spared Russians in Ar14a_cont which is about the same time as Ar14 so they may be on their way to join Alliance. Actually maybe they use this very opportunity (Heike attacking) to slip away. That would mean they actually owe Heike twice. They could tell her about the cargo bay convoy passing through. If Heike didn't spare any in Ar10 no convoy will appear so the player can only get some extra resources if he/she did spare someone in Ar10.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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About the timing we can just make it so if the player finds the teleporter too late it will simply already have been disabled.
That would be a bit unclear. There is no secondary objective "Hurry up to seize the teleport" or any indication why is the base with the teleport any more significant than others, but the player looses medal if he doesn't take it over fast egnough (being at mission time limit makes it unlikely but still a possibility). That's why I suggested, in the third option, that it is somehow said in the intro, that it would be a good idea to take a look at the teleport and make it a priority.

The spared Russians approach Heike in 14a because like them she rebelled against her superiors. At this point it should be clear that the Arabians are out to destroy siberite for good, and that's what the Alliance stands against, so I don't think they would help her unless they really needed to in order to get away.
I didn't have anything in mind for them, just thought I should mention so they don't get overlooked, but if they are to appear like that, I think Heike is more likely try to hunt them down. After all they don't really know about the Alliance, unless something is to be said in 14 intro, and she would probably take them for retreating Russians.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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Hm, argh, I just can't come up with any good explanation why they would know anything about that exact teleporter. Btw there is also the possibility that the player never gets so far as to find the teleporter before time is up. How about we drop the medal for using the teleporter and don't cut in the resource amount the player gathers if the cortege is sent the ordinary way? That way the teleporter will only give the player a slight advantage in the next part of the mission because he/she will have more characters (less guards required for the cortege if sent through the teleporter).

Hm good point good point. But you could look at it this way: The resources of the Russian cargo bays being in the hands of the Russians or the Arabians is a bad thing either way, seen from Alliance perspective. So paying Heike back by telling her about the cargo bays is not a "bad deal".
Alternatively they could play a role in Ar15 somehow but I'm not sure how.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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It's ok to make it all one medal but I get the feeling teleporting should have bigger importance. Something about shorter time in which the convoy arrives maybe? Like if teleported, they arrive long before Heike in last mission and that allows Omar to prepare a base and maybe research a few basic techs before Heike and Gensher return, in the first part of Ar15.

What about the Ar13 scout I mentioned? We can assume he was around New Samarkand to witness the sudden appearance of Russians and the Arabians know the Russians have some space bending abilities, so that alone could imply teleportation. The target Heike would choose for Ar14 shouldn't be accidental, they could at least suspect the Russian army was assembled there. Snake arrives at the scene much befeore Heike, and if he has time to do some spying, witnessing some minor teleportations could make him conclude the Russians used one of their contraptions to send their forces right up to Samarkand. Only problem is, now he has to appear in both cases of Gordon/Gensher help, but still there could be some extra people from Gensher.
The resources of the Russian cargo bays being in the hands of the Russians or the Arabians is a bad thing either way, seen from Alliance perspective. So paying Heike back by telling her about the cargo bays is not a "bad deal".
I suppose that's ok.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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It just occured to me that Omar actually have to have built a small base with at least a siberite lab before Heike and Gensher returns, because in case Heike didn't make the artifact readings in Ar13, Omar will have to do it. Now that I think of it, even if the player does the measurements Omar will have to decipher them before or just in the beginning of Ar15.
0dd1 wrote:What about the Ar13 scout I mentioned? We can assume [...]
Hm all right, sounds reasonable. The player will then from the start have the objective of securing the teleporter so it's ok it is disabled if the player finds it too late. Snake then always appears (only on radio though) and if the player helped Gensher in Ar10 he will send some extra people (some random scouts he had around anyway).
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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We didn't say exactly when Omar does the thing with finding the motherlode. He could be doing it during the time of Ar14, and then move to start a new base in Ar15 intro. We did say that it will take more time if the player doesn't take the measurements, so I guess this means that if the player does the measurement, Omar will have some spare time to build a small base for Ar15 intro, while if Omar has to do the measurement as well, it doen't leave him much extra time so the player starts with fewer buildings.
Snake then always appears (only on radio though)
Somehow I always assumed he joins Heike. What reason would he have not to show up if he's in the area? Could we say that he's recalled by Gensher, so he only briefs Heike over radio about the situaton and then goes back north? And in case the player helped Gensher in mission 10, he sees it fit to spare Snake, making him and his group (recall that it's said he's with some other people in Ar13, 2-3 people regulated by difficulty?) join Heike?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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I just imagined Omar would need at least a basic lab to decipher the measurements and if he has that then why not build it where he and Heike will be building a base in Ar15 anyway?

We are gonna need an operating scout under all circumstances because the time limit is in the first place placed upon the mission by the time Heike has before Russian reinforcements arrive. She needs a scout to look out for them. The point is just that no reinforcements ever arrive because Platonov has pulled all units towards the motherlode, so the real time limit stems from Gensher being trapped. That just isn't obvious before it happens.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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That's assuming they had it all planned, like where and when they meet. The situation of the Arabians seems rather dynamic for that kind of accuracy. I was thinking of it like this: during the whole evasive manouvers, Omar takes some people into one of their smaller bases, perhaps making some vehicles for further fighting or something like that, and delegates some scientists to work on the data in the meanwhile. So they kind of work on it on the run, before the Russians froce them to retreat again.
And if the player didn't take the measurement, that leaves more work to do for Omar, making any preparations for a base in Ar15 more difficult.

That sounds ok. Although I think there would need to be at least few sentries considering they are deep in enemy teritory. But that's just a detail for the dialogues.
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