[EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Dział poświęcony projektowi Arabian Campaign

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0dd1
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

The base idea of Gensher going rouge is the one proposed from the very beginning:
Antitheus wrote:It's important to get the full loyalty of UPF. Without their force, Arabians are underdogs.
Letting him die does sound like too much of a blow to the Arabians. Altough it occured to me if it was a secondary objective then this:
In the preparation part of the mission a scientist (Christina or Khattam if possible) tells Omar and Heike that calculations suggests that contaminating the motherlode could have dire consequences. Omar wants to keep this a secret but Heike refuses. She will condone no more lies, thus she tells everyone else about this and says that those who are not ready to accept the consequences are free to leave. No-one leaves.
could end in some of UPF leaving without Gensher to keep them in line, giving the player fewer people to play with.
And why would it be dramatic for the player? Seeing how antagonistic (sort of) he was to Heike, it'd be more like "Finally, he's out of the way!". Killing him like that seems awfully repetitive to Powell's death, too damn convenient, but that could be just me.
Also, as much as this makes sense:
vanimpe wrote:Legion hates Gensher (as we see in mission 13 pro-Legion) and their first objective would be his death.
...there was no real intent on huntig him down actually shown in pro-Legion missions. Wouldn't adding that be inconsequent?

Another reason for, would be that it's a good opportunity to kill Farmer, in paralel to killing Gensher, JMM or Burlak in other missions. (I know it says otherwise in the script, but we haven't got to exact details of it yet) Someone proposed to give the player a chance to kill JMM or Burlak before, but that seems to lie in the context of their long mutual hatred (only in Rus campaign but still), ending either in reconcile or demise. Heike was more related like that to Farmer and Gensher, so it makes sense to join one and kill the other depending on side choosen (though the fact that Farmer is killed in 14a anyway breaks the pattern a little).

Rolf was supposed to be Genshers friend, so the Legion wouldn't really trust him, he would have to desert first himself to join them. The idea sounds good if Gensher really has to die though.
I was thinking about including Gordon or the Friend (willard fields or whatever he was changed into) in Ar14, as a consequence of Ar10 choice - Gensher could send Heike some UPF people (assuming he didn't do so in previous missions) and it would only be fair to give the player some bonus from the opposite too. Maybe Gordon/Friend could give Heike some tip for getting easy resources off Russians (this option wouldn't simply be there in Gensher variation)?
Vanimpe wrote:What's about Hans Gluckman and/or Oskar Butler from the first mission?
Are these the people from first mission intro? It sounds like they would be "Gensher's" people so it would fit to include one/some of them in Genshers reinforcements Heike would get or be present with along Gensher in the ambush.
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McBenn
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

vanimpe wrote:Gensher should die. Legion hates Gensher (as we see in mission 13 pro-Legion) and their first objective would be his death. That would be more dramatic for player (Arabs lost New Kaaba, New Samarkand, Hassan, Gensher and Abdul) - that's why they are weak. Lust for revenge should be the main reason why Genscher won't survive.
The Arabs just lost their two main bases and two of their highest ranking commanders. They are already screwed with just that. Isn't that dramatic enough? And as 0dd1 points out there was never any hunting of Gensher on Legion's part. They only try to kill him in Ar14 because the chance presents itself. Anyway I think it's kinda nice that you as player finally get Gensher's respect. It feels like Heike has always stood in his shadow. Makes you feel you have achieved something. The same kind of feeling as when you take high command as JMM or Burlak.
0dd1 wrote:Someone proposed to give the player a chance to kill JMM or Burlak before, but that seems to lie in the context of their long mutual hatred (only in Rus campaign but still), ending either in reconcile or demise. Heike was more related like that to Farmer and Gensher, so it makes sense to join one and kill the other depending on side choosen (though the fact that Farmer is killed in 14a anyway breaks the pattern a little).
I agree. JMM and Burlak only makes an apperance in the Arabian campaign - same as Heike in the Russian and American. I don't think Heike hates JMM more than any other American commander but she may hold a grudge against Burlak for taking her captive in Ar08. Anyway if plans hold she does get the opportunity to kill them both in Ar15 if the player decides to raid Alliance.
Rolf Bergkamp
According to Ar12a Rolf had to run because of some mutiny against Abdul. And Legion doesn't trust him either. To me it seems more probable that he turns to either the Americans or Russians (as he does in Ar15).
0dd1 wrote:I was thinking about including Gordon or the Friend (willard fields or whatever he was changed into) in Ar14, as a consequence of Ar10 choice
We will then have to remember that Gordon and friends are close to Farmer as indicated in the pro-Legion branch. If they know Heike are there Farmer would probably also know, and wouldn't he try to kill Heike then? Or maybe, on second thought, he wouldn't mind because Heike would be a nice distraction so the Russians wouldn't notice him and Kozlov. In that case Gordon may even help Heike.
Having Gensher send Heike people seems less realistic since he's focused on Farmer. I simply planned on letting him give Heike more/better reinforcements in Ar12.
vanimpe wrote:Who will stay with Heike and Arabs?
This is my master-list : P
Spoiler:
[Name] [Seen first time in mission nr] [Joins]

Heike 1 Players decision
Gensher 1 Arab (UPF)
Olaf 1 Heike
Oswald 2 Heike
Ralph 2 Heike
Sonya 2 Heike (Ralph)
Aviradze 2 Arab
Kowalski 3 Heike
Willard 3 Legion (Gordon, IUF)
Evelyn 4 Arab
Abdul 4 Arab
Omar 4 Arab
Hassan 4 Arab
Gordon 5 Legion (IUF)
Suze 5 Legion
Farmer 5 Legion
Bodenhof 6 Legion
Swansson 6 Arab
Kurt 7 Legion
JMM 7 N/A
Martin 8 Legion (Louis)
Louis 8 Legion
Burlak 8 N/A
Dwayne 9 Arab
Gonzo 9 Arab (Dwayne)
Khattam 11 Depends on player's decision in Ar11

"Heike" means the character will follow Heike whatever path she chooses.
vanimpe wrote:What's about Hans Gluckman and/or Oskar Butler from the first mission?
Yeah I would place them either as reinforcements in Ar12 or with Gensher in Ar14.
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0dd1
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

If they know Heike are there Farmer would probably also know, and wouldn't he try to kill Heike then?
Actually I didn't think of it that way. Seems funny for Heike to stir things up between Farmer and his chance for sib bomb again (and maybe too repetitive :oops: ), but besides that, it is not unlikely for Gordon to help Heike a little, as long as it's nothing she can directly use against Legion. Seeing how Heike made a choice to stay with the sheiks (Legion's enemy) they shouldn't really help her directly but a friendly tip over the radio, as a part of repaying the favour from Ar10, would not be out of place.
Alternatively, if they were some sort of recon for Farmer retreating from the area as Heike arrives, they might leave some resources they no longer need for her, since it won't harm them.

But they would have to be pretty sure she wouldn't upset their plan, so it would have to be possible for Kozlov to get away without even meeting them. Here's an idea:
Heike is informed about Legions plan and Gesher being on the move at the end of mission. Whatever resources gathered have to be sent north immediately (if weren't already) with some of her people. She takes a smaller squad to take a look at the bomb facility (that would now be a cinematic), hears some commotion inside like maybe an explosion and rushes in as the base is thrown into chaos (there could be people running around, soldiers leaving their posts, some damaged buildings and the like) and moves into the teleport after Kozlov (the exit of it being set by Kozlov to meet with Legion).
That would take her right into the battlefield where Gensher is. Kozlov manages to get away since Heike's attantion is now elswhere. Would Farmer now be present and killable for the player? Staying only to kill Gensher personally would not be out of place, only that leaves the question who should lead Legion, Kurt could do it as in original campaign but he could be dead at this point too. From Your list, after him there's Suze(which btw I'd think she'd be with Heike?), Bodenhoff(unlikely), Louis, Martin or Gordon.

And about Gensher's reinforcements, it could be said in Ar13 when it becomes clear that Heike will raid into Russian territory, sometime before the end of the mission. Gensher could have some not needed scouts hanging around or something like that, meet Heike along the way, thus giving the player few extra people from the beginning of Ar14.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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0dd1 wrote:a friendly tip over the radio, as a part of repaying the favour from Ar10, would not be out of place.
Alternatively, if they were some sort of recon for Farmer retreating from the area as Heike arrives, they might leave some resources they no longer need for her, since it won't harm them.
Would be fair enough. And well "favour" is perhaps an exaggeration. She just happened to cooperate with him in Ar10 (possibly, that is). I don't know if there's actually a favour to repay.

Ar14:
Why take a look at the bomb facility that could be some distance away from Heike? She is kinda in a hurry with wrecking as much havoc as possible before Russian reinforcements arrive. And even if the base is thrown into chaos can she really just stroll in and use the teleporter without meeting resistance? The teleporter is probably in the center of the base. To me the current plan sounds better: She hears about Gensher's decision but chooses to stick to her mission. After all she has no reason to believe Gensher will have problems. However when he does, she has to take action (loyalty of UPF and all that stuff).
I'm fine with letting the player kill Farmer (that son of a... :P). Kurt is the most obvious one to take his place and whether he is dead or not is really up to us (power of storytelling :P).

Making Suze stick to Legion no matter what was based on her personality. She don't seem like the kind of gal who would go along with the "heroic" intentions.
0dd1 wrote:And about Gensher's reinforcements, it could be said in Ar13 when it becomes clear that Heike will raid into Russian territory, sometime before the end of the mission. Gensher could have some not needed scouts hanging around or something like that, meet Heike along the way, thus giving the player few extra people from the beginning of Ar14.
Hm also fine idea. I'm just thinking it could entail some complications for mission balance if the player may gain a couple of extra people. That's not as critical in Ar12 since the mission isn't strictly timed. But then again if those people are carried over to Ar13 we kinda have the same problem.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

Heike lies to Gensher about not seenig Gordon around. Considering the menace he represents to disloyal mercs i'd call that a favour.

I know the reasoning was flawed but using teleport (at least for Kozlov to escape) seemed like a fitting idea. I have no problem with current layout though might try to rethink this one too.

Kurt is one of the player's characters throughout the campaign, so he can die somewhere along the way. If he does, are You going to storytell him back to life? :lol:

Suze seemed kind of tough gal, a little similar in that to Oswald (and he stays with Heike), but no matter.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

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0dd1 wrote:Heike lies to Gensher about not seenig Gordon around. Considering the menace he represents to disloyal mercs i'd call that a favour.
I always thought they never knew about that conversation. If they did they would run away as soon as Heike sells them out and not wait for their scout to spot UPF.

Ar14, Kozlov:
He doesn't have to ever show up in any part of the mission. We just know he's out there, he has a shady deal with Legion, and later we find out he hightailed it with Legion.
0dd1 wrote:Kurt is one of the player's characters throughout the campaign, so he can die somewhere along the way. If he does, are You going to storytell him back to life?
Stupid me :oops: Didn't consider that. Of course. In reality we can't be sure any one main character is alive to take Farmer's place. Hm ok makes things a bit more complicated. The easy solution is obviously to let Farmer live.
0dd1 wrote:Suze seemed kind of tough gal, a little similar in that to Oswald (and he stays with Heike), but no matter.
She's different from Oswald in that Oswald is actually a true friend. You'll just never get him to admit it. But you can see it through his actions (like rescuing Heike in Ar09).
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

True, but Gordon had to know that Gensher would be looking for them, and since they didn't meet any immediate pursuit afterwards, the least they could conclude is that Heike didn't contact Gensher on her own, which would be her duty to the chain of command.
But even despite that, I don't think it's unreasonable to include Gordon's help anyway, simply to balance the benefit of helping Gensher in Ar10. Unless You can come up with something else for that?

Even easier solution is to just make someone up, like it happens several times in all campaigns. Would it be too much trouble to have 3 possible leaders, Farmer or Kurt or someone new?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

Nope I didn't, and I have made a note in the manuscript about this. Just wanted to highlight some points.

Ofc that's also possible. It may not even be necessary to make up any new leader if he/she won't make an appearance in Ar15 anyway (i.e. be part of some dialogue). So shall we say Farmer will be killed by the player in Ar14? I think I like that better than letting him get away, especially because it would really emphasize Gensher's defeat: Heike not only saves him but kills Farmer for him. After that it seems natural that Gensher would submit to Heike.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by vanimpe »

In mission 13 am Powell tells Macmillan that near their base Gorky will drive his tank. He explains that he is part of Arabian-Russian Alliance. Maybe, Gorky should be with Legion in this camp?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

$ D3-Pow-3
- This group of Russian-Arab renegades calling themselves the Alliance are having a meeting. The word is that one of them, Gorky is making his way by a road near you.
Sounds like Powell is a little off. He thinks The Alliance consists of Russians and Arabs. Indeed Legion could cooperate with Alliance but Burlak would never join Legion.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

I always assumed it was an error in dialogue. Similarly in next mission JMM reports he is just north of Delta base, while it's clearly not the case. It's also clearly said that he is en route to Alfa base while he is really giong for Powell's camp near the motherlode. Dates are also funny: 29th of March he is near Kappa and he arrives at the 1st of May in the next mission (while by comparison with other dates in campaign, it would take him maybe 3 days). Shouldn't that date be changed to 1st of April?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by vanimpe »

Don't forget about Corporal Ortlieb from the first mission. He should be a part of Gensher's UPF, of course promoted to lieutenant. Maybe, commander of auxiliary troops sent by Gensher. :D
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by McBenn »

0dd1 wrote:Dates are also funny: 29th of March he is near Kappa and he arrives at the 1st of May in the next mission (while by comparison with other dates in campaign, it would take him maybe 3 days). Shouldn't that date be changed to 1st of April?
Hm ya that sounds funny. Never noticed. All other branches end at the motherlode around late march or middle april so I guess I could change that. The problem is changing all the other languages. Just running through google translate won't necessarily yield the right results. The dialoges we ofc can't do anything about.
vanimpe wrote:Don't forget about Corporal Ortlieb from the first mission.
Just because a character appears in the first couple if missions he/she doesn't have to show up again, but I'll make a note about him.
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by 0dd1 »

Do You think we could get more feedback if I translated the script to polish?
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Re: [EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

Post by Antitheus »

0dd1 wrote:Do You think we could get more feedback if I translated the script to polish?
Planned to work on it in the free time. Feel free to translate it if you want. Otherwise, I would do it after I've got the main files corrected.
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