[EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

[McBenn]

I don't really get why Arabians should use artifact to invent the tech they just have in their siberite lab

It's just for the sake of the story. In Ar15 Alliance also tells us that Omar probably got the inspiration to siberite decay from artifact 4.

* Desert warrior / sheikh
I didn't know desert warriors can't change class or drive cars . That puts some serious restrictions on them. From a strategic point of view it would be better to introduce desert warriors and their pets in earlier missions but story-wise it's hard. A sheikh could perhaps help in Ar04 but it seems somewhat odd since (at that point) lower-rank Heike is given this task. If there was a sheikh present shouldn't he be in charge? Some of the same goes for Ar05 and additionally Suze tells no animals go near the place because of the swamp. In Ar06 you only have people from Ar05 with you but hm you could perhaps put a sheikh in Bodenhof's group. That's my best shot.
To be honest I never really considered a sheikh's and a mastodont's power vs. conventional weaponry. I only had my mind on the story

* Ar12 (0dd1)
Such kind of "2-stage" mission would be interesting. I agree the mission will need balance between "research" and "test on unwilling test subject" for it not to resemble Am12, Am13 or Ar07 too much. Regarding the plot it's good but we still need the context, i.e. the remaining missions. Missions can seldom be planned individually.


Ok I've been doing some thinking. There has been a good deal of nice ideas in this thread so I've tried to pull out the best and stick them together.

Ar12
Abdul orders Heike to find a suitable spot for researching and field testing siberite decay. Scientists believe artifact 4 holds the key so she is to bring that with her. She camps in the desert north of American territory near some siberite deposits (in the hope that noone will go looking here). Ofc Am had the same idea with their siberite bomb research and their base is not that far away we later find out. Legion has been hired by the Russians to end Am research and seize their results. Stopping their research is ok but Legion must not get the results. There should be some sort of incentive for the player not to kill off Am right away so the player has to defend them against Legion. Furthermore the player should capture at least one Legion member (order from Gensher) for interrogation.

Ar13
In the intro for Ar12 it's told that Ar found another artifact (number 5) in the mountains and it was moved to New Samarkhand for futher study. Now New Samarkhand is under attack by the Russians (partially because of the artifacts, partially because of Ru via Legion now knows about siberite decay and want to eliminate Ar before they can use it on the motherlode (Ru know about the motherlode but not it's exact location)). Instead of returning to New Kaaba Heike's team must turn south and defend the retreating personnel. This is you map layout 0dd1 with the addition that you must defend retreating friendly units. Omar joins after some time with mastodont and tigers. Since some friendly units are only persued by few people I hope mastodonts and tigers can be put to some use. You also have to guard the prisoners from Ar12 and Legion will try to rescue them with a surprise attack.
During Ar12 scientists noticed that artifact 4 had geo-remote abilities, always "pointing" to some direction south (spoiler: the motherlode). They want this further investigated so you have to do some readings around the map (kinda like Ru13 but without a lab). This is how Ar learn about the motherlode.
At the end of or during the mission Alliance attack New Kaaba and kill Abdul. Everyone else there pulls back to a smaller base further into the mountains.

Ar14
The prisoners reveal that Farmer has joined with Kozlov and are developing the siberite bomb and it's almost done. Heike and Omar prefer to look into the motherlode but Gensher refuses. He and UPF do not want to see such a weapon in Farmer's hands. Since Ar can't do much with the support of UPF, Gensher and Heike sets out to stop Farmer while Omar prepares for going to the motherlode.
Farmer's fortress has several forward bases, mines, kamikaze monkeys, implosion vehicles and ambushes. The player can take over some of the minor bases but time is short. The map should be somewhat of a maze. A little like Am07.

Ar15
I'm still a little clueless about this one but in the beginning Heike should build the vehicles she need and pick her men. No enemy attacks. She and Omar will then eventually attack the motherlode with what they've got (no base buildup). This will make a short mission and I haven't got any good ideas how to prolong it. Perhas something like Heike needs to pick up something from an enemy base needed for the contamination to work (all other was lost with New Samakhand and New Kaaba).

[0dd1]

I rather liked the way the taming was integrated into the story and with character of Aviradze. Especially considering there is no actual research for it. I don't think it should be tampered with at this point, but the desert warrior alone still can make it into earlier missions.
In 01 intro we see clearly that Gensher is in charge of the operation. He commands Abdul just as he does Heike.
In 05 intro Abdul puts Heike in charge of the most importanf front, as he calls it. It is as if she had more commanding authority than Omar, at least in terms of capability.
It would also resemble the situation from Ru06, where in radio dialogue with his brother, Burlak addresses Gleb as if he had some sort of authority over him. In fact, there is a funny loosing condition: "You can't just kill a political commissioner. Next time send him to the front lines. You Lost!" - if the player decides he doesn't like him very much.

The point is, the question of authority can be worked around. What needs to be considered is the personality of the sheikh and any dialogues that may be altered - after all, it would probably have to be a new character. That is, if there's going to be a shiekh at all of course.
I'd say Ar05 is the most suitable place for one, considering Heike's position, the fact that there are no lions there and that the mission itself isn't very extensive. If, for example, a sheikh were to materialize during the mission, then Heike would put him through to Abdul who would inform him of the situation and tell him to come back to their main base or something. Then if he were more of a warrior than a commander, he might express some disappointment over the fights he missed so far and an eagerness to join the combat. Then Abdul might allow him to stay under Heike's command, with the reservation that he is to be brought back alive.
Because Ar05 isn't long it won't be too much of a fun, but it's still better than nothing and if he could be transferred to 06, it shoud be good egnough for the time being (and I don't think there are any tigers there either).

There should be some sort of incentive for the player not to kill off Am right away so the player has to defend them against Legion. Furthermore the player should capture at least one Legion member (order from Gensher) for interrogation.

How about a difficult terrain? Imagine the Americans set their camp past some long valey or a mountain pass and Legion attacks will be comming right through there. The player would be placed topside of a hill or cliff from where its possible to get a shot at vehicles comming through the pass or valley, but actually getting down there, to reach the American base, would mean going back the way they came and around the hill/cliff which would take time.
As for the capturing, I'm not sure how that would fit in, maybe Farmer had some outpost on top which was supposed to cover the attackers?

Ar13
New Samarkhand wasn't mentioned before. Maybe it should be said that Omar wen't to buid it during Ar12?
With a non-standard mission like this, I'm sure something can be arranged for the sheikh's sake.

Ar14
I see You removed the revenge motive. That leaves to explain why would he refuse to cooperate like this. Who is supposed to be in charge after Abdul anyway? Gensher or Omar? If it is left unclear then that would probably do, though it would need to be somehow (indirectly) shown in dialogues of previous mission.
Would that be a good time to use the "friend" deception I suggested before 15a, or is it too repetitive now that the genuine "friend" has made it into the campaign?

Ar15
What about Gensher? Wasn't he higher in rank than Heike? Wouldn't he refuse to cooperate again if Omar told him to follow Heike's lead? Maybe that's something that would extend the mission - like some sort of prolonged intro, as in Am15, where at the end Gensher would die or give up and let Heike command.

[vanimpe]

I think that mission 7 is the best for introducing taming mastodonts. During this mission, one of sheiks should materialize on the map and ask Heike/Aviradze to give him a horse. Unfortunately, there are no horses, that is why Aviradze has ingenious plan to tame mastodonts for sheik. McBenn should add special technology to laboratory and after developing it, Aviradze should say that it will be better if he (this sheik) choose and start to tame mastodont. Aviradze should teach him how to use it, that is why during this developing sheik should be in the laboratory. In my opinion, we should use sheik from the mission rus 14. I attached screen with his face. Of course, there should be an objective that he mustn't die.

Mission 12, 13, 14 ideas are great, i don't have comments to it. I can't wait for ready missions!

I think that Omar Ali is the most important person in the game (besides Abdul), and he decide to be under Heike's control.

[McBenn]

* Desert warrior / sheikh
Both your suggestion, 0dd1, for placing him in Ar05, and your vanimpe in Ar07 are viable. Actually you could maybe place one in Ar04 as a "supervisor" for Heike. What bothers me in all cases is the technical detail that you cannot control the "tame mastodont or tiger" button in the desert warrior interface. You can't disable it. So the moment the player has a desert warrior at his/her disposal that button will be visible. It's a story-thing. Aviradze can only develop mastdont taming as early as Ar07_cont (since he just got the hang of tigers in Ar07) but he wouldn't start unless a sheikh shows up. You could perhaps get around it by not letting the sheikh join your side until the taming research is done. Honestly I still prefer leaving it to Ar13 simple because at that point Aviradze will have developed mastodont taming and it's obvious why Omar would let Heike be in charge of him.

Ar12
Here's what the map could look like

Ar12.jpg (46.2 KiB) Zobrazeno 5628 x

After some research the player's scientists conclude they need some information on siberite fission (the data from Epsilon is sparse on this matter) to develop siberite decay. Lucky for them that's just what the Americans are doing. So the player picks a character to go under cover in the American base (telling he/she has defected the Arabians/Legion and want to join). He/she will inform when to strike at the Americans to seize their results. Until then the player has to defend them against Legion but that's difficult because of the terrain.
About the capturing: It's just a matter of capturing some of the attacking Legion members.

Ar13
Sure. But I think Omar should stay in New Kaaba (that way it seems more natural for him to assist Heike in defending the retreaters from New Samarkhand instead of being one of the retreaters but that's ofc also possible). Hassan could build it instead.
I hope too that deserts warriors, mastodonts and tigers can be useful here. Tigers for reconnoisance at least (we could say that on harder difficulties the player doesn't share vision with the retreaters).

Ar14
Isn't it reason enough that Gensher sees the problem in Farmer having the bomb? He could bomb them into oblivion before they get even near the motherlode.
If we leave Hassan to be killed in New Samarkhand that leaves only Omar as a high ranking sheikh. But perhaps Gensher could challenge this.
Phh friend deception, how was it now? If it's that about some of your former friends joining you and then stabbing you in the back then that's very usable here.

Ar15
Hm yeah maybe. With Farmer out of the way what's keeping Gensher from following the primary objective (destroying the siberite)?

[0dd1]

Some additional observations:
How many sheikhs are there? Are there going to be just three?
Alliance may be of little relevance here, but are they going to get all the artifacts?
Wouldn't Heike be under Gensher's command in Ar14, if they attack together?

* Desert warrior
I did think that after Omar's call about Russian reinforcements he might send Hassan to help, it's funny he has a name and wasn't even mentioned ever agian. I personally don't see how an extra button would be bothersome. In any case, that sounds like something that can wait for now.

Ar12
It's just too obvious, that the undercover is only there to keep the player from giong straight after the Americans. Why would they take in one of the mercenaries (even if it would be a scientist)? What does (s)he has so valuable to offer(unless, maybe brings the artifact along)? Do You really think they wouldn't suspect anything, especially after epsilon? Also, stealing the data again is a little repetitive (and we know from 13a they were already working on the bomb in epsilon) and makes Arabian scientists look dumb in comparison - can't they develop something on their own?

Isn't it reason enough that Gensher sees the problem in Farmer having the bomb?

I didn't mean it's irrelevant, but there has to be some motive for chalenging the chain of command (if there still is any). Imagine if it was Abdul ordering him to go after the motherlode and Gensher's like "screw this Farmer is more important" - remember that all of the mercs were supposed to be profesionals and Gensher isn't just one of them, he is their commander. I'm assuming here, that a professional carries out orders even when he doesn't like them, or am I wrong?
It might be worthwhile to consider Omar's position in the expedition. It's natural to assume Omar takes over after Abdul's death, but strictly speaking it was never said that all the sheikhs are egually the employers here. For all we know it might have been primarily Abdul's mission, and the rest of the sheikhs were just as much "recruited" (but not for money of course) as the mercenaries.
From that point of view, he might challenge Omar's orders. Alternatively, he would have to really question his supperior's judgement to do otherwise and in any case, a little self-righteous anger might make it more dramatic.

Friend deception:
Actually I meant it to be the other way around: Heike picks one of her men to contact the legion telling them he wants to desert and offering to spy/sabotage on Heike and Gensher for them. If the player is convincing egnough, he might influence legion's actions, to some degree, and benefit from it.
Funny egnough it's the same idea You posted above - so You kept it in mind but conveniently forgot it was mine.

With Farmer out of the way what's keeping Gensher from following the primary objective

I didn't meant he would refuse to carry out the contamination, but depending on how is the issue above hadled, wouldn't he insist on being in charge of the operation?

[vanimpe]

What's about Gossudarov? In pro-arab dialogues sb should say sth about him. He will be the main reason of Alliance attack.

[McBenn]

* How many sheikhs are there? Are there going to be just three?
As for now we've only seen three (Abdul, Omar, Hassan) but I guess there could be more.

* Alliance may be of little relevance here, but are they going to get all the artifacts?
Even if we place nr 5 in New Kaaba the player would still carry nr 4 with him/her. I guess not having all artifacts would have consequences for Alliance.

* Wouldn't Heike be under Gensher's command in Ar14, if they attack together?
I've been thinking that too and couldn't come up with anything better than letting the player have control anyway (for no obvious reasons...).

* Desert warrior
Plausible. Actually I think the only reason I put Hassan there in the first place was because he's mentioned in Altar's notes for Ar04.

* Ar12
Yes, yes, yes aaaand yes. Nice to have someone shoot down my ideas with thought-out arguments rather than just accepting them *sigh* I dunno why but the pro-Arab missions seem really hard to conceive (not that I spend that much time on it - I'm focusing on bugs and improvements for now, include the bunch you reported ages ago). The missions for Legion came so naturally.

Funny egnough it's the same idea You posted above - so You kept it in mind but conveniently forgot it was mine.

If I ever claim an idea is mine and it's not please write in capital letters. I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

* Gossudarov
He will ofc be mentioned when Alliance attacks New Kaaba.

[jirsrt]

maybe in Ar15 Heike can capture big artefact (like in Am15a or Ru15a, where were Arabians) and use it to teleport to the Motherlode

[vanimpe]

jirst, no, it is a bad idea cos they don't use it in those missions.. But, have you played pro-legion mission 15? There Heike could.

[McBenn]

@ jirsrt
That is actually not that bad an idea... It would be a long teleport (into a whole other map perhaps). In that case Ar15 would be about recapturing artifact 5, researching the tech (while defending I suppose) and execute the teleport to the motherlode and then contaminate. I think it's an interesting idea

[jirsrt]

@vanimpe
she can´t, because Legion don´t use artifacts, they fight for who will pay. But Arabians capture a big one. Arabians don´t atack in Am15a and Ru15a (because you destroy New Kaaba, you demoralized them) and if they use artifact, they will use it once.



@ McBenn
Something like that i was thinking, maybe Heike can brig out somehow most Russians from the Motherlode (capture Gossudarow, Kozlov or Burlak and ) and then use that artifact like teleport to the deserted Motherlode and contaminate. Maybe she can pay Legion for attack to the Russians (because they will fight for who will pay, but that is the thing, what Kozlov? they will have siberite bomb, maybe she can protect them until they have a bomb).


@McBenn again
I think Arabians use in Am15 at the end the artifact and maybe teleport themselves closer to the Motherlode (, they just wait, when Russians are out of play). It will be maybe shortcut. (Because in their map Ar15 will be only part of Motherlode, just like in Ar15a.)

sorry for my bad english

[McBenn]

Luring the Russians away from the motherlode is unlikely to happen but maybe Heike can control the flow of the battle to make sure someone (probably the Americans) defeat the Russians but only just so, so teleporting in and contaminating afterwards is possible. It's about being patient and just push a little here and there. This concept is quite interesting.

[jirsrt]

Maybe Heike can protect the Americans (or Alliance - artifacts, Legion - bomb) from attacks for make the Americans stronger and defeat or get weaken the Russians. Maybe the Americans can entice away the Russians from some part of the Motherlode, that side will be weaken to break in. Maybe Heike can somehow focus Russians attack to Legion - tell them, that Legion still construct siberite bomb. I thing entice away is point of Arabians strategy.

And i wanna ask you McBenn, if Heike contaminate the Motherlode, kill it everything live on Earth or everythin in large area? If the second choice, Heike with her small team can contaminate the Motherlode and rest of Arabians can teleport out of there with big artifact and go destroy rest of little siberite mines.

[0dd1]

About mission 12:
It occured to me sometime ago, that it would be strange for Heike to try to take them all out by herself, given that they weren't supposed to get in a fight. She would have the artifact and some of their best scientists with her - risking the loss of these in an open firefight with two enemies, with only limited firepower on their side is foolhardy.
Also, considering the stakes of this mission, maybe Heike's part should be viewed as a piece of a larger operation - mobilizing the UPF against Legion, during the time Heike holds her ground against the attacks, is not unreasonable given the price of failure here. That would also fit with the Russian offensive in next mission, as the southern teritory is less secure because a lot of their forces went north.
Basically, the reason not to engage the Americans at once may be Abdul's orders - the priority is to finish the research and inhibit Legion's attacks, until the UPF secures Heike's back/flank. All out attack is not worth risking without larger support, because even eliminating the threat of the bomb won't be much good if the price for it would be the loss of the artifact, their top scientists and the contamination technology.

The Americans shouldn't be too apathetic as well - some reinforcements moving to their research base under fire is the least they could do. As for the location, the desert is far from Kaaba. Maybe moving it to where it is in Alliance campaign is a reasonable compromise?

I also tried to imagine how it could look like from Farmer's perspective. Since we assume he will try to obtain the bomb himself (as in Am15 and Ar14), ideally he should try to sieze the Americans plans just before or even after they have finished it, because Legion doesn't really have the capacity to develop it themselves at the moment. So his strategy might actually involve letting Americans finish and test it, and try to get them on their way back. That justifies the long range attacks over simply building a base nearby to attack from there.

Something like this:

Spoiler:

Ar12.JPG (45.7 KiB) Zobrazeno 5476 x

Farmer sets up fortifications to cut off the Americans from the south and keeps attacking from east and north. This is mainly intended to weaken them for later but is just egnough put pressure on them. Because the Legion base is so conveniently in their way, it will be bombed as soon as it is finished. By that time the base should be left vacant, though I can't really explain how would they know exactly when to run.
After they get their results, the Americans will need to pack up and go back to their territory. Directly to the south (most likely direction), Farmer has set up his forces, to both ambush retreating Americans and stop any reinforcements going north, including newly made self-propelled bombs and maybe something like bazookas with special ammunition (since they are supposed to be in Russian employ). Going to the north (circling around to the west and then south) means going further into the desert being constantly chased by Legions vehicles. And if the Americans stay where they are, they will eventually fall anyway, because they are so cut off.

Putting it together with my previous thougths on it:

Spoiler:

Intro(part I) - New Kaaba. Heike is ordered to oversee the finishing of the research in the field. She is looks at a map of previously located siberite deposits (it would be rather silly to have them drive around a desert looking for siberite to contaminate) and decides to go north-west, a territory that's supposed to be unoccupied. Gensher notes that that's the way deserters were running and insists on sending few scouts ahead, in case they can be around.
Intro(part II) - Heike is on the road. Abdul calls and says there's a change of plan - some scouts reported enemy activity in the area. Gensher explains that his scouts followed legion troops and discovered American research outpost sitting right on the deposit Heike meant to contaminate. Legion has fortified on top of a hill to the south, covering south and east exits of the valley, cutting off the enemy and securing the way in for vehicles attacking from somwhere in the east. Gensher's intel revealed that the fortifications are mainly pointing at the Americans, and there's little that protects them from the south. Heike has no chance against Americans and Legion with what she's got, and there's no time or room in the area to build another base. Heike chooses to takeover Legion's base, meanwhile Abdul sends her reinforcements and Gensher leads some of the UPF to somke out the attackers in the west.
In game:
Stage I - Heike arrives behind Legions back with a small squad and takes over the base. Captures some prisoners in the process. She notes a strange layout of the base and that it seems undermanned.
Stage II - More firepower arrives to join Heike. Meanwhile some of the prisoners may reveal they are about to be bombed. That plus additional scout reports about arrangement of Legion troops makes them deduce their position: enemy laying in wait to the south, approaching waves of vehicles from the west, American base to the north and they make perfect nuke target practice. If Heike tried to attack Americans at once, Farmer would have to abandon his plan and go all out from south, because he can't allow the bomb research to be destroyed. So she'd end up being caught in between Americans and Legion.
Thus, Heike's orders are to finish the contamination research, hold her ground and inhibit Legion attacks. Farmer shouldn't alter his plan at this stage since he expects Heike to be soon nuked, though some of the attacks may go directly at her, instead of the Americans. At the same time Gensher is ordered to smite the Legion blockade to the south.
Stage III - Gensher engages Farmer's forces and Heike starts preparing for the attack. After a while he manages to drive them out and is in position to cover Heike's back. Once he gives the go ahead, Heike finally attacks the American base, which should be shortly before the bomb is finished, and makes the contamination.

About Gensher in Ar14:

Spoiler:

Gensher shouldn't question Heike's loyalty at this point but would probably consider her commanding skills inferior to his. Same for Heike - she would think she'd make a better command, but doesn't have the UPF behind her. However, both have the same goal and are willing to do anything it takes, including dying. Therefore, it's not unlikely that one of them would stand down if it was somehow proven who's better (since the mission takes priorty over personal pride).
So how about turning it into a killing game?

arprop.JPG (8.29 KiB) Zobrazeno 5476 x

Whoever kills the most before Farmer's dead gets the leadership. I'm not entirely convinced this would fit with their characters or that this simple contest would decide who's a better soldier overall, but that kind of arrangement would solve their dispute efficiently.

If I ever claim an idea is mine and it's not please write in capital letters.

It was just a joke, no need to be alarmed.

The use of artifact in last mission sounds fair given that they have been incorporated into the campaign, but using the mass teleportation again is really getting repetitive. There is something I noticed about 15a before, seems like only a detail but is relevant here:

Spoiler:

some of dialogues after research specificly state that the function of the artifacts are vision, sib destruction and teleportation - that's a little presumptive thing to say about something made by an alien civilization. What's more appropriate to say is that they can use the artifact to achieve a specific result - because it may be that what they discovered is just a fraction of its true potential. We have seen such other uses in Ru13, Ru15, and Am15 the motherlode location, contamination and teleporting people into the Alliance base.

How about getting a bit more creative with the articfact effects? Spreading radiation over some small area, making some of players units invisible(by DoNotAttack), drasticly increasing speed of human units(as if manipulating time) etc?

[McBenn]

Maybe Heike can protect the Americans (or Alliance - artifacts, Legion - bomb) from attacks for make the Americans stronger and defeat or get weaken the Russians. Maybe the Americans can entice away the Russians from some part of the Motherlode, that side will be weaken to break in. Maybe Heike can somehow focus Russians attack to Legion - tell them, that Legion still construct siberite bomb. I thing entice away is point of Arabians strategy.

Something like that, yes.

And i wanna ask you McBenn, if Heike contaminate the Motherlode, kill it everything live on Earth or everythin in large area? If the second choice, Heike with her small team can contaminate the Motherlode and rest of Arabians can teleport out of there with big artifact and go destroy rest of little siberite mines.

Altar is not that specific about the consequences of the contamination (and I belive this subject has been discussed before). Anyway I don't think that's so important. It's not directly stated anywhere but it would seem if you start a chain reaction in the motherlode in will propagate to all existing siberite sources.

@ 0dd1
* Ar12
Intricate plot but sounds like a good plan. There are just a few things:
Why wouldn't Heike just pull back to New Kaaba when she learns Legion is around and leave things to Gensher and UPF? As you say losing top scientists and/or the artifact would be disastrous. Maybe there's simple no other "good" siberite sources around or she's already surrounded by Legion when the info comes up. In the latter case it's strange she ventured that far not waiting for the scout reports.
Why would Farmer attack the Americans and set up the base? Wouldn't it be better for him to just silently surround the facility, wait for them to finish and return and then ambush them? In that way he would also not have to deal with American reinforcements. Maybe he isn't that optimistic, anticipating the Americans finding out they have them surrounded, but still what's the point in attacking and/or setting up a base? Weakening them, well isn't it just a fairly weak research outpost already?

* About Gensher in Ar14
Hm, phhh. There could be some contest about the leadership but to run one while executing a vital mission... I don't think that's gonna work. Or well, given the layout you have there, it could be "whoever downs the first forward base gets the leadership".

* Artifacts
It's more an idea about the Arabs depending on one or more artifacts to contaminate the motherlode. Given both New Kaaba and New Samarkhand has been destroyed they must be fairly weak at the time of Ar15. It would mean the mission would turn into something like capturing the necessary artifacts (most likely from Alliance), researching them and using them before siberite bombs start to fly the skies. Something like invisibility, as you say, would also prove quite useful.