[EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

[vanimpe]

I think that in mission 15 pro-arab should be done sth similar as in Alliance missions. Player should have Omar Ali and Heike Steyer under control.

And there should be mission objective. Heike Stayer and Omar Ali mustn't die.

[0dd1]

That's right, but it's a detail. How do You find either of the proposals for mission layout?

[vanimpe]

This artifacts in original camp is in arabian bases on mission 11 am (screen). What's more, this artifact is used by Alliance in mission 15 rus to contaminate siberite motherland. So it should be used as the main in Ar camp.

I think that:

in one of the missions we should defend our bases from am attack (as in mission 11 am, that is why we still have this artifact),

in the next we should work on siberite contamination and find Hugh Stevens base where he works on the siberite bomb (on the end of the mission Omar Ali should tell us that Alliance attack New Kaaba and steal another artifact and Abdul died).

and in the next we should built new base with Omar Ali (New Samarkand) and defend it from rus attacks and Legion attacks (they'll work together) and in the legion base we will find informations about siberite motherland. And special extras - In this mission we will have to tame mastodont - mission objective for medal (Aviradze's new idea). Maybe on the end we should kill Burlak and Farmer.

On the mission 15 Legion should still be but Kurt Schimdt should be his commander and they will work on siberite bomb with Kozlov. (it is very important that Legion, USSR and Am will have siberite bomb - mission will be harder).

[jirsrt]

arabians can contaminate(destroy) Motherlode, or maybe arabians can defeat alliance and with artifact destroy the motherlode (that should be medal, because your people will be alive), because in Ru15 Alliance want destroy Motherlode with artifact(and in this mission isn´t arabians, only Legion)

[vanimpe]

I attached project of my vision of the 15th mission map.

Like in am camp mission 15 Arabs should attack from the north.

Player wil have two ways - destroy easy Alliance and strong Americans and attack USSR only by mortar man and other soldiers.

Attack easy Alliance and Legion and attack USSR by classic way from am camp.

Alliance like in the original camp should kidnap our people, but their base should be easy to destroy by remotely controlled cars.

Legion, USA and USSR will build bomb of course.

Heike base, USA base should be on the hill - like USSR and Legion.

USA cannot easily defeat USSR because they have only snipers, they can't attack USSR from the north.

Heike in her base should have only an oil depot.

My map: http://forum.original-war.net/download/file.php?id=359

[0dd1]

The use of the artifact in destroying siberite is reasonable, considering its power and relation to the siberite, but using it like the Alliance in ru15 realy simplifies the game. All the player would have to do, is to get the artifact, defend the base while the research is going, and then what? Just press the button? The mission would end without even getting anywhere near the Russian base. Using it in developig the contamination method is egnough. Also, considering how unclear the artifact role is, does it really have to be nr 5? Artifact 4 is the one responsible for sibreite destruction and already is in possesion of the Arabians, so it'd be simpler to use that one.

About the map: In short, it has the same drawbacks as 15a. It is strangely cramped (recal the vast empty space of Am15), has illogical base locations (if americans can't even attack the Russians from the north, why the hell did they set camp there?), and this ridiculus mind-set of putting every base on a hill creeps out once again. The funniest thing is, it can't really be any different because of the nature of the final goal.
So the mission can either be absolutely forced and unnatural, or something altogether different which will probably be very difficult to devise and balance.
Wonderful alternatives so far.

[vanimpe]

About artifact, in Alliance mission 15 you have this artifact too. But you can use it to contaminate siberite? You can kidnap enemy soldiers? NOOOOOOOO.

So, it depends on the scientist's knowledge how to use it.

Yea, the same drawbacks cos it is in the same location but on the north. It is impossible to create sth extraordinary. Map of the rus 15 mission and am 15 mission are very similar but are made from the other point of view.

On the rus mission 15 USA are on the north, on my project too.

On my map project USA could attack directly USSR, just don't make forests.

Is cramped? Just make a space between legion and heike's base bigger.

ORIGINAL WAR is this type of game. It should look like this 'cos it is the main game purpose.

[McBenn]

* Artifacts
As you say 0dd1 it would seem that artifact 3 was supposed to be the one found at Ovsyenko (although yes the dialogues don't quite fit), number 4 by Gossudarov south of the motherlode, and number 5 by the Arabs in the mountains. In that case, in the pro Arab line, the Alliance would have number 3, and Arabs number 4 and 5 (number 5 having been found after Ar11).
I haven't considered the two other artifacts and not to complicate things I think they should only be included if there's a good reason.

Also, is there a plan to use a sheikh under player's control in pro-Arabian missions?

Aviradze has to invent mastodont and tiger taming at some point which requires a desert warrior. So yes Originally I thought this should go in Ar12 (with Omar by Heike's side) but it can go in any other mission where it's appropriate.

* Ar15
Since the Arabs's starting point is so different from any other nation's I would really like to see a last mission that's different from all other last missions. Something like what 0dd1 outlined. The incentive for not making camp by the motherlode could be
- The Arabs are militarily inferior to both Am and Ru so their only hope is a surprise attack.
- There isn't time. Everyone else soon has a siberite bomb and there is no way Ar is gonna win that race.
I'm not sure how to justify the gameplay with respect to the story. But perhaps because Ar stole Ru's artifact there is a shift in power. Perhaps Am finds the motherlode first instead.

At least it seems we can all agree that in one of the missions Ar develops siberite contamination and uses it to e.g. disrupt Am's siberite bomb research.

[0dd1]

Aviradze has to invent mastodont and tiger taming at some point which requires a desert warrior. So yes

Wasn't tiger taming shown in 07 intro? On a practical side, how do You imagine using a mastodont against things like heavy guns, rockets, bazookas, time lapsers or snipers? It doesn't do as much damage as most weapons largely because it attacks as a buldozer, it's not very fast and the "drivers" bonus to "weapon" and "chassis" is not multiplied by 2, like in case of the mechanics. It also can't be reproduced like vehicles. It would be a shame, if it ended up to be only a decoration.

Same goes for the desert warrior. He can be very efficient in killing people but at the same time he can easily get killed, simply because he must approach the enemy to attack at all. Plus he can't switch his profession or even drive vehicles so he isn't terribly useful.
Have You considered introducing one earlier in campaign?

Some time ago I tried to play with both, to see how could they fit (on hard). In mission 4, a mastodont with rider sci lvl10 + 2 or 3 vehicles was about evenly matched in the vehicle attacks that were going on there, though still a little problematic because of the way it attacks. Mission 5 has some opportunities to use a sheikh if the player can find a blind spot in the stationary base and can be quite usefull in killing the last escapeing Russians. Mission 6 uses level 0 computer vehicles so it is possible to play around distracting them, if not destroy a few. Also, at this point soldires can't be above level 6 and so high level seikh could replace a lvl 4 or 5 soldier in a turret. I tried my best to utilize the warrior + 4 tamed tigers in mission 7, but he (and the tigers) just isn't fast and tough egnough to make efficient hit and run aggainst American attackers from behind the defences or from flank. At this point, it's simply hard to find something for him to do.

Perhaps Am finds the motherlode first instead.

The thought occured to me when I first saw the plan for 15a, but then I realized it's not without it's reason. So far in all campaigns, the Russians are most familiar with the siberite (or there wouldn't be need for a joint effort at Epsilon) and they have the biggest acces to it. That measns they know the localisation of many siberite deposits and in Ru13 intro Bystrov clearly states, it's from this data they deduced the existence of motherlode.
Since they don't have the artifact, they may be slowed down, but on the other hand, the Americans learn about the motherlode later and even then they don't have as much information as Russians. It's unlikely they would get there first, unless there can be some extra reason for it?

ORIGINAL WAR is this type of game

No arguments here, but this mod has proven time and again, that some creativity can make things really interesting.

[Nicollo]

Ru15 is a little bit stupid... Americans, Alliance and Legion have great bases...but in wrong places. Was it big problem go further and build base at motherlode instead waiting for Russians? Maybe on Ar15 Americans conquered motherlode from commies (with Platonov as general) but Gorky came with reinforcements and he has base in another place?

[vanimpe]

In mission 12 (?) Heike should be with Omar. Development of siberite contamination technology is the main purpose of arabian expedition, that is why Abdul should send to this mission Heike with Omar. Omar trusts Heike and they are friends that is why he decide to be under her control. In this mission we should have special task for medal. Omar should tell us that he don't have skills to drive cars 'cos in his family they use only horses/camels, that is why Aviradze should invent sth and tell us about taming mastodonts. Suddenly, Paul Khattam/sb says that near their position Americans are working on siberite bomb. Arabians decide to test their new technology on Americans' siberite deposit(yes, the only siberite deposit on the map is in their base) to stop their work. On the end of the mission sb should tell Omar that Alliance attacked New Kaaba and Abdul died.

This mission should be on the desert, because it is very dangerous mission. But we should not use the map from the mission 13 am.

To invent this technology, Arabians should use artifact.

[nadwrazliwosc_zebow]

Well, in my opinion taming mastodonts and tigers in contamination mission has no bigger sense except just fun. But, maybe it can be wisely used in mobile mission. Mastodonts may easily come close and hit Russian heavy tanks, especially those with long-distance rockets (they'll be useless against enemy so nearby them), sheiks and tigers are much faster than bazookas, etc. I think we should go this way. BTW IIRC there's no tech to invent sheikh taming - they just do it.

I don't really get why Arabians should use artifact to invent the tech they just have in their siberite lab. But we need to find a good reason if contamination will be researched twice - in Ar12 and Ar15. Like in Am campaign, where plans of bomb were destroyed by Russians. Omar, Heike and scientists would of course guard results all the time between those missions, and I don't think starting last mission with most important research already completed is a good idea.

[0dd1]

Mastodonts may easily come close and hit Russian heavy tanks, especially those with long-distance rockets

It only sounds nice. In practice, it won't work against multiple targets, because they simply disperse and once sheikh attacks one target (and most vehicles aren't taken out by one saber slash), all others will get a shot at him and it doesn't take much to take down a masodont, sheikh or a tiger.

sheiks and tigers are much faster than bazookas

Same as above. How often do You see a lone bazooka?
Of course, they can be used with some support, but they can't possibly be overall as effective as vehicles or mortars. Sending Your forces against an enemy squad to take out all but few long dinstance rockets or such, withdraw them and have the sheikh take care of the rest, makes no sense from tactical point of view.
Like I said above, You have to go out of Your way to make him be usefull in the slightest. It would be fun if there really was something sheikh could be effectively used for. Which is why, I would sugest to prepare some part of mission(s) (like secondary objective) in a way which would make the sheikh more usefull to the player than the rest of his people. Inserting one in some previous misson could help too.


Researching the artifact is a logical consequence of obtaining one. Imagine how it would look for the campaign as a whole, if Heike put so much trouble in capturing the artifact and nothing would come out of it in the end. It's also not unreasonable due to their relation to the siberite. As for the research, note that we are hardly ever being told what the research of any particular technology involves. Such as the local tau field, where the Russians are supposed to carry some mysterius device on them. Similarly, in case of contamination - we don't know that they are doing it with their bare hands (I would think not), thay may need some devices/materials, which may need to be prepared on site ,instead being transported across a large distance.
Also, by applying the same way of thinking, none of the technologies which were devised in previous missions should have to be researched again (including the upgrades), at least in most cases. Since it was already "researched" they should automatically "know" how to produce something. Does that really make sense?

[Antitheus]

I recommend focusing on the main plot (mission 12, 13, 14, 15), instead of minor details for vague mission.

[0dd1]

Some additional thougths on mission 12:

In previous one, Abdul is said to be "taking care of something", could it be that he is preparing something in advance for the final stage of sib decay research, at that time?
It would probably help in planning to clearly establish when does Abdul exactly die. Is it mission 12 or 13?

The way I see it, there are two possibilities: either they take their research for a field trip (because destroying one of their own mines in the middle of a war isn't too smart), which wolud be like Am13 or they specifically plan an attack on some enemy mine/research base (due to Abdul's mentality), which would be a little like Am12.
Alternatively, something in between.

I would personally go for such mix, since the first would be just a repetition of Am13 and the second case doesn't include actually doing the research - they can just finnish it in Kaaba and then go for a ride. The target would most likely be at least of medium importance Russian base located somwhere around Ovsyenko. It would have to be accessible egnough for Arabians and important egnough to attack. Attacking Americans is also an option, but since they just lost Epsilon, their siberite research is crippled ai it is.

So, the research is finished prepreared base in the north desert. After a successfull field test, Abdul orders Heike to prepare a strike team, while the Russians are occupied with American mines to the North (that is, if my previous assumption is deemed valid) or otherwise are distracted by Arabian (Gensher's?) forces. The player would then prepare a strike team which would be transfered to another map (something like attack on Tukhachevsky?), while the artifact is taken back to Kaaba. That would ba a reasonable place for Abdul to die, whether by Legion or the Allaince though, if he were to die in mission 13, it could be in part due to Russian retaliation (since destroying siberite is destroying their advantage), which would then divide Arabian forces.
How's that for Ar12 main plot outline?

I see my last post got dubbled by some mistake. Can't it be removed?