original-war.net

I would agree with McBenn.
- First of all: Altar's notes - Heike contaminates the Siberite and everyone dies.
- Second: Original mission's convention - Why Macmillan won't say "screw this" and throw a Siberite bomb into Ru base? Why there's no other "ending"? Why, while playing as Alliance, we couldn't contaminate the motherlode using the artifact? The answer is clear - choices. After the patch is chosen, we're proceeding in accordance with some ideology, which is leading us into straight goal.

More importantly - we must discuss the plot of the 12-14-15 missions (and 15a of course). How would pro Arab missions look like? I presented my ideas for missions 12-14 some time ago. I don't like my previous m12 vision, but some of the elements may be fixed:
-12: New Kaaba is under heavy siege - Heike with a small group of her companions must do something in order to draw Alliance attention. Arabians are ready to move their base but it's not possible when attacked by the Alliance forces (Heike could hunt for their leaders or something). During the siege Abdul is killed by the Legion traitors (He left the base but was ambushed) - Gensher is calling for revenge.
-13: It's important to get the full loyalty of UPF. Without their force, Arabians are underdogs. While Omar is responsible for building new base and searching for the motherlode (artifact? Alliance hostages?), Heike goes for a hunting. She's going to have Farmer's head on a plate. After destroying Legion bases (vide my previous posts) it becomes clear that Farmer is planning something big - he used his man and left them as a cannon fodder but he could probably be working for/with Russians and he's going to get the plans of Siberite bomb.
-14: Stopping Farmer become a biggest priority for Heike. She can't let this madman get such terrible weapon (it would outweigh the tide of the war). In the meantime: Russians are attacking new New Kaaba (vide Russian 14th mission). Despite the fact Omar managed to track the motherlode and somehow defend the base - he didn't got the time to prepare the final assault (telling Heike she's the best commander - so she should be in command of their forces - the titles are irrelevant as long as they share the same goal.

My idea for last mission

jarmok wrote:My idea for last mission

Spoiler:

Omar & Heike want to destroy siberite but dying while doing it seems little bit excessive. What if they first capture Alien structure and then use it to teleport away from the area? Or hide inside?(Ok that is absolutely lame.)

Altar's ideas.

ArMiseEng.doc wrote:Subcampaign 4 (Arabian)

Missions 12 to 15

In the last mission, Heike helps Omar to destroy the siberite motherlode.
Outro (Arabian)

Takes place when Omar destroys all deposits of siberite.

A too bright landscape, maybe a strange sound. Something like breastwork. Omar is exhausted and slowly lies dows against its wall. Heike kneels down beside him.
"Tell me truth, Omar. We were too close, weren't we?"
Omar turns his face covered by sweat to her.
"Nobody was far enough."
A moment of silence. Everybody looks in a different direction.
Finally Heike meets his eyes. "What do you think, how much time we've got? "
"Two days. Maybe three."
"You can fit a whole life into two days, Omar," silently replies Heike.

Heike.doc wrote:6. she destroys the Siberite deposit with Omar and dies in the process.

Source: http://forum.stucuk.net/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=2029

"Altar said so. The gods have spoken and so it shall be!"

The irony aside: It's one of those typical heroic endings. In order to protect humanity against itself some valiant warriors sacrifice themselves. For the greater good. Such selflessness, such devotion. (beautiful isn't it ).

Doesn't
mean:
That's the most natural explanation of this text for me.

nadwrazliwosc_zebow wrote: mean:

Spoiler:

All living creatures of this world die of radiation and future won't exist, something like what Roth says in Am15.

That's the most natural explanation of this text for me.

It's just a speculation. Both campaigns are full of it. And it doesn't mean he was right. Original War is a story about time looping. Siberite is a fictive mineral - non existing in the real world. We could assume that, present world is a fraction of time, which the Siberite was destroyed. I don't think the radiation after destroying it would erase the life from the whole planet. It's a nonsense, imho.

Anyway, sad endings are best endings.

Antitheus has right, our world is this without siberite, so we could speculate that (if it really happens) in the past Arabs won that war and that is why in our reality we don't have siberite. So it will be real that all the people and animals should die in pro-Arab camp ending and that is why people nowadays think that in the past was sth like THE ICE AGE (siberite is on Russian territory and Arabian history is connected with USA - that is why we had on Europe/Asia THE ICE AGE).

Arabs should definitely destroy siberite.

# You must remember that John Macmillan stays with USA when Heike and Omar attacks the siberite motherland, so what shall you do with him? I think that HE SHOULD BE USA MAIN COMMANDER, because Powell would shot a siberite bomb to motherland (like in Legion 15th mission) - what is good for us and will make our game easier. John Macmilan wouldn't.

We should remember that Heike and Omar Ali are on the map after Powell kamikaze death.

# That is why I think that Legion, USA should built siberite bomb. It will be for us harder, we should destroy all of them before USSR, because they would shot us. And later USSR should have a bomb or attack us by behemoths?

# Burlak death is easy to explain, if Heike is with Arabs, he stays with USSR and Platonov killed him (like in third option of rus 12 mission) or just he was killed by Macmillan on mission 14. That is why high commander of USSR should be of course Platonov.

# I think that Omar Ali should be under Heike control on 15th ar mission, they are friends/couple. In Am camp 15 Ali Hadarach and Macmillan are joking that they are couple and have honeymoon. You should add a love story like this with John Macmillan and Joan Fergusson. Their death in last mission will be like in romantic movie (huhuhu ).

What's about destroying New Kaaba by Red Army in Rus mission 14? In this mission there were lots of sheiks in base and the most important - Abdul Shariff.

New Kaaba should be built after destroying New Samarkand by Alliance.

I think that we should not know a destroying siberite technology before 15th mission, because if we test it before, we know that after using it scientist dies. It should be shocking for them on the end of 15th mission, after we destroy all the enemies. Maybe, Peter Roth should tells us about it? Like about shooting a bomb to USSR base?

My vision of 12-14:
Mission 12: Mission 13: Mission 14:

There was never any doubt the Arabs want to destroy the siberite. That's evident from Altar's notes.

Point taken. Ofc noone should "help" the player by bombing the motherlode. And yes the map would have to be arranged so the player has to fight his/her way to the motherlode to contaminate it.

Burlak or Platonov as commander. Since JMM is commander of the Americans I would prefer Burlak being in charge of the Russians. Just to keep things symmetric. But other than that I don't really care.

The relation between Heike and Omar is more of a close friendship than a romantic relation. Sometimes you even get the impression that Omar is like a father figure to Heike who ran away from home when she was just 8 years old. There's already a love story in the relation between Ralph and Sonya

For the record: The base in the mountains destroyed by Alliance is New Kaaba. The one destroyed by Russians in Ru14 is New Samarkand.

If you were on a mission to destroy siberite wouldn't you find a way to do so (and test it) as soon as possible? And if you are as determined as Omar you don't care if you die in the process. That's why I'm certain in mission 12 you should set out to research siberite contamination (using the artifact you captured in Ar10) and test it on American/Russian siberite mines.
As for mission 13 and 14 I'm not sure. I like Antitheus's idea about having to hunt down Farmer/Legion to maintain UPF's loyalty. It could be that when Alliance attacks (and destroys) New Kaaba, Legion seizes the chance to cut of the Arabs's retreat and kill Abdul. Blinded by fury Gensher wants revenge and even though Heike at that point knows about the motherlode she has to satisfy Gensher because if they lose UPF they are powerless. That should be mission 14. My problem is what mission 13 then should be. Constructing New Samarkhand? Perhaps, but what should be the substance of the mission? There's also the last artifact (the cone shaped one), you capture from the Arabians in Am11, to consider.

I think that mission should be harder if Burlak and JMM are commanders. Powell & Platonov are worse, cos they're weak and nervous. But it is a great idea that both will be with their original nations. It will be the only camp in which we cannot see Platonov & Powell as commanders. And what is the most important, JMM would not attack as easy as Powell motherland by siberite bomb.

Hmm, in mission 14 when Burlak destroys New Samarkand, he at the same time eliminate Arabs from the game and we do not have Arabs in mission 15 - only Legion. So I have idea, maybe on mission 13/14 we should built & defend this base from USSR army?

But on the mission 14 after searching Legion soldiers to kill, when all in all Omar and Heike where out of base they should do it.

BUT, the most important thing - from whom Heike will know where is motherland? In Legion camp is easy to explain, from Kozlov and Russian base. But in pro-Arab missions? So:

Idea with studying artifact is good. I have next idea to it, maybe during this tests they will discover where is the siberite motherland? As it was presented in Russian camp, when Bystrov and Burlak make tests on USA territory to find siberite motherland. Bystrov said 'The artifact always shows where is alaskite motherland'. It will be great to add to this mission more objectives.

And it is a good idea to catch and kill Farmer in mission maybe 14(?) - it will clearly explain why in mission 15 (am) there is Kurt Schimdt as a main commander. I think that we should not eliminate completely Legion before mission 15. It will make this mission easier... But Heike should thinks that she does it. 'cos she has just forgotten about her old friend Kurt.

Having JMM and Gorky as commanders may be unique but it kind of spoils the image of the two powers ready so send it's own people to their deaths to satisfy some ideological crap. I always thought the characters themselves reflected the cultural or ideological tendencies, as much as other details like patterns of nameing bases. In short, Powell and Platonov are fitting exactly because they are so fckd up.



There is one type of mission which I would like to see (gameplay-wise): A few global points to consider in planning: Here's how it could all come together:

I think that only Omar Ali (or nobody!) should know that after using a siberite contamination on siberite motherland all people on the Earth will die. I think that Arabs would not fight if they knew about side effects, so this knowledge should be hidden by sheiks. Especially, after our tests on mission 12 ar. Test results should be kept confidential. Heike should be shocked in the end of 15th mission.

That is why, Khattam and Aviradze are bad heroes to be siberite specialists. There should be one, special scientist - HAJJI who will be a Gensher's trusted expert from Epsilon arabian base and he won't tell anybody about results of this researches in mission 12 pro-arab.

I don't think, that planted unawareness would be a best solution here. They are specialists in their disciplines (not idiots), they can easily claim some thesis on conclusions (e.g. when you discover the explosiveness and instability of Siberite). Like Roth in 15-15a. Omar Ali is aware of this fact from the beginning. You could read his reaction from the Altar notes - and he's well prepared for it. In his opinion, it's going to be a vital martyrdom.

@ 0dd1
That type of gameplay sounds really nice Arabs do have a lot of gear and tech allowing them to use such tactics.

0dd1 wrote:How are they supposed to even successfuly gather if they don't get help from neither Gorky and McMillan? That would make the Alliance even weaker than they are in legion's last mission.

Point taken.

0dd1 wrote:One thing that I find questionable is all this infighting and desertion among mercenaries. True, they don't have any real cause or loyalty to fight for, but on the other hand, they are supposed to be the best bunch that money can buy (Abdul says so). A professional is someone who gets the job done despite the difficulties and without getting all emotional about it. And such is the case with Gensher - if he liked Abdul so much, why not avenge him by accomplishing his main goal instead? If he's to go mad like that I believe it should be partialy Heike's and Omar's fault that Abdul died.

You've also got a point there.

About the missions:
You are onto something here... I like it
Thwarting Hugh's research over and over again is perhaps getting a little repetive but I can think of no better alternative atm. You could spice it up a bit by letting Legion appear.
Abdul could get killed by Legion's attacks on New Kaaba making Gensher even more infuriated.
I'm getting confused about the artifacts. Where do number 3 (the vision artifact) get into the picture? Gossudarov finds number 4 (destroy siberite artifact) and Am claims number 5 (teleport artifact) in Am11 from Arabs (but oddly it's also number 5 Alliance steals from New Kaaba in Am13a/Ru13a...).
What about mission 15? It has to be rather different from all other last missions since the goal is not to defeat everyone but just to get through to the motherlode.

* Siberite contamination
It's also important to consider when the Arabs get knowledge about the motherlode. Not until then would anyone start to think about what would happen if you contaminate such a large mass of siberite at once. I don't find it unreasonable that Omar would keep that information close but scientists and Heike would know about it ofc.

i have a question, in Am15 Peter Roth say, if I throw Siberite bomb on the Motherlode, I will destroy Earth. So if Arabs contaminate Motherlode, will they destroy everything alive on Earth?

if yes, Arabs can after last mission, capture the Motherlode and get all siberite on part and get it on the one place (not all at the same time) and send there scientists from enemy to contaminate them (they will die after that). This is how will they destroy the siberite and the enemy.

sorry for my bad english

I can't help but think someone dropped the ball on the artifacts issue in original campaigns. It really isn't all that unusual, ow has multiple dialogue/description/mistakes/unfinished loose ends.
There are two instances in American campaign relatd to artifacts: in Ovsyenko, during the mining, they uncover something unknown, though the dialogue makes it seem like something smaller and less sophisticated - a material rather than an artifact (or maybe like the artifact nr 1). It is only a dialogue, there is nothing to load on truck and guard or transport.
The other is Am11.
I don't know how it is in other languages, but in polish cinematic before 12a there is a mention of Roth and the artifacts -plural- as if there really was an actual artifact in Ovsyenko, and so they had two. Then in mission intro, Roth says "I'll be waiting with the artifact" -singular. In American version of the Alliance, Burlak is supposed to lie about Kaaba having an artifact to make the Alliance destroy the Arabians. Altough the dialogues themselves make it even more confusing. So it would seem they really had two(3 and 5), or at least meant to have, and then they go to get stashed nr4 in 14a. The only explanation for that I can think of, is that originally they were meant to find the artifact in Ovsyenko, but then some (incomplete) changes were made durig game development.
It would mean that one artifact was found by every nation , instead of 1 by Russian and 2 by Arabians.

In Russian version, Gossudarov brings one (4) (hides it durig his escape and is reclaimed in 14a) and they find one in Kaaba(5) and so Roth must have had one too, but it is never really told from where. I can only guess it was from Ovsyenko.

By the way, have You ever considered using Artifacts 1 and 2 in Arabian campaign? It would probably make a nice addition (and it would take a few creative ideas for their use), if keeping track of three weren't hard egnough.

Also, is there a plan to use a sheikh under player's control in pro-Arabian missions?

What about mission 15? It has to be rather different from all other last missions since the goal is not to defeat everyone but just to get through to the motherlode.

I haven't really thought about this but it seems correct - the map used in Legin 15a may not be sufficient for Arabian finish. Then again, it might simply be said that the contamination must start in the centre of motherlode, for some madeup reason. It wouldn't be the first such case, as for example, the player looses immediately in Ru15, when a single mine is built on some remote source on motherlode, despite that there is no logical reason for that. It might be dubious, but it would give a reason to destroy the Russians at least. Also the Russians may simply be made too difficult to defeat for Arabians - like sourounded in massive lapsing field with a lot of turrets. The player would have to obtain the artifacts like in 15a or Russian/American technologies by defeating Americans/Alliance and capturing their labs and cranes.

The only other thing I can think off, is to make it "mobile", like the raid which was shown in Am15, instead of the standard built,bunker up,destroy. The mission would require of the player to travel, or rather fight through, accros a large distance, like two or three maps. The idea for gameplay would be similar to the one I posted above, except the goal would be to travel from one end of the map to another, with as little damage done to player's forces, so that they can make a successfull raid when they finally get to the motherlode.

The obvious problem here is how to make it as long as any other ending mission? Maybe it could be separated into two parts: the preapartion and the actual ride, both of about 0.5h:
- The first part (again, like my idea above) would include putting up some sort of mobile
perimeter around Arabian base. The player would have to stop incoming waves of enemy, while the base prepares for the journey - makes vehicles, research upgrades and such - until finally dismanling the base, joining the player and going straight for motherlode. That, beside balance difficulties ,leaves also plot-wise questions - why would anyone attack and with what? The fact that the Arabians can destroy siberite would have to be revealed and even then only secondary forces could be sent against them (like the Pink Army led by Vsevolod in Am15) as all the major
forces and attention should be focused on motherlode at the moment.
- The ride then, would have to be very long and creative in design to make it a match for other last missions. It would make sense to have the Arabians fight through largely stationary and automatic bases (as all available people have to be at motherlode), but then, wouldn't it look ridiculus to have all other sides' bases around every corner and all right in our path? It also doesn't seem plausible (from what we've seen so far) to have everyone suddenly recognize Arabians as everyone's enemy nr 1, and be actively trying to stop them.

It's a very interesting idea, but can it be pulled off?


@ jirsrt
Roth's doomsday prophecy is, to some extent at least, a speculation. Anyhow, Omar is willing to pay the price. We can also assume, his people are willing to carry out the plan as well, since otherwise they would probably join the legion. There is no real reason to think they would leave the contamination to someone else at this point.