[EN] Missions 12-15 pro-Arab

[0dd1]

So actually "attack area 2" shouldn't be there?

Yes, but at this point the proposed map should be resized anyway. More space on the right side of the map, with some hills to place the remote controll towers is due. The hill Heike's on should probably be a bit bigger (and more in the centre of the map?) seeing that the player will be largely confined to that area. The southern entrance area is also too close to the base, as any attackers comming through there would practically spawn right beside the player's units.
As for the bazooka teleproting - I meant for them to attack the Americans. Like in parralel with the regular route only further away from Heike's base. Some of the attackers would be gathering (over time to give the player a chance to detect and stop them?) near where they get teleported send over one by one by some bazookas standing nearby. Though it is a bit of a problem: such a suprise attack on Americans would be devastating, so it would have to be stopped as a part of main not secondary objective.
Making Legion attack with Russian equipment is too much of a mixup. I see it more as a further hint about Legion working for Russians, as if it could be speculated that some of the technology(within limits) was shared between sides and Kozlov was assigned to work with Farmer on this mission. Of course neither side trusts the other, but the Russians would make some compromises to get the bomb plans and here the cooperation of Kozlov with Farmer begins relating to Kozlov's destertion in Ar14. None of that really needs to be mentioned in game, it's just a little hint linking the missions.

Ar14:
That's what I've been thinking. Wreacking havoc on Russian territory, though still sticking to the proposed map layout - the research base has to be there to justify Farmers, and Kozlovs appearance - just not making the mission revolve around destroying the research base. I'm thinking that the base should be made invincible and (story-wise) with Kozlov waiting inside for Farmers signal to steal bomb planes and escape by teleport or something like that. To Heike, this base would not seem of any particular interest, as she has plenty of other targets around.

Omar and Heike wouldn't be indifferent about the bomb, but now that they have the means to destroy the sib and know about the motherlode (could be revealed over radio by Omar) the main focus for them, is to repel the Russians so they have time to prepare the final attack on motherlode. I don't think Genshers personal motivation can be avoided in chasing Farmer - think of all the times he was after deserters (and Farmer seems like the worst of them) here and even once in Russian campaign. That's not to say he wouldn't care about the bomb. A mixed motivation would probably be the case but all that it would take to move him, is the confidence that he can hunt Farmer down without sacrificing too much in the process - because Omar has no real authority over him (I assume we stick to this?).
So, Gensher gets beaten and then he is forced to acknowledge his failiure accepting Heikes leadership. I would prefer to keep him alive like this, to avoid making him just an Arabian "Powell". Never really liked how the Russian leaders conveniently commited suicide either.
How does that sound?

[McBenn]

The proportions of the map have to be fixed somewhat yes, but the sketch is good. About the remote control towers I think it better if they are somewhere in the mountains surrounding the American base. At least somewhere the player can't reach unless going "downhill".

As for the bazooka teleproting - I meant for them to attack the Americans. Like in parralel with the regular route only further away from Heike's base. Some of the attackers would be gathering (over time to give the player a chance to detect and stop them?) near where they get teleported send over one by one by some bazookas standing nearby. Though it is a bit of a problem: such a suprise attack on Americans would be devastating, so it would have to be stopped as a part of main not secondary objective.

The idea is funny but I think it's a little far-fetched. And why stop them from destroying the Americans anyway? Unless they can get away with some research results or something ofc.

Making Legion attack with Russian equipment is too much of a mixup. I see it more as a further hint about Legion working for Russians, as if it could be speculated that some of the technology(within limits) was shared between sides and Kozlov was assigned to work with Farmer on this mission. Of course neither side trusts the other, but the Russians would make some compromises to get the bomb plans and here the cooperation of Kozlov with Farmer begins relating to Kozlov's destertion in Ar14. None of that really needs to be mentioned in game, it's just a little hint linking the missions.

Well maybe the Russians wouldn't hand such over to Legion anyway. It would just, as you say, make a hint that they are de facto working together. And ofc make it harder to defend if they use timeshifting rockets.

Ar14:
Gensher's motive is his zeal to hunt these traitors + stopping them from getting the bomb, enhanced by the feeling that this time he can really get the best of them. And he doesn't really respect Omar's command. After failing miserably and being saved by Heike he accepts her command. Sounds brilliant.
Actually he doesn't have to ask Heike for help. I don't even think he would. That relieves us from considering if Heike would help him or not.
Heike just sets out to destroy, destroy, destroy any Russian base of value. Oh and by helping Gensher she can also get rid of Kozlov = the bomb. One rock, two birds.
But to make this work I think we have to move the "helping Gensher" part out in a completely different map. I have a feeling there just isn't space enough on even the biggest map for both a handful of bases for Heike to attack and Legion's ambush on Gensher. And having those on the same map furthermore has complications if the player has units in the wrong places at the wrong time (e.g. Gensher being ambushed).
Invincible base. When I read that I got goose bumps. So many times I thought I had made something invincible and someone always found a clever way anyway. But are bulletproof way should be to actually make it impossible to reach or at least get into the base.

So how would this mission go?
Heike arrives at area with some Russian bases. Has to do as much damage as possible within some times limit as well as gather some resources on the way. At some point Omar tells about the motherlode as well as Legion working with Kozlov who will desert the Russians with plans for the bomb (from a base nearby), and Gensher has set out to stop them. There was nothing Omar could do to stop him. (A secondary objective with killing Kozlov before he escapes?). A little later (at the time limit) we hear Gensher has been ambushed and Heike has to help him. Exit the map and enter a new where Legion has surrounded a group of UPF folks. (Maybe some Russians also show up either as reinforcements to the bases Heike attacked or as personnel from the bases hunting down Kozlov?). Heike saves the day, mission over.

[0dd1]

That's what I meant. If the Americans occupy left side of the map, Heike is on the bottom and Legion comming from the right the towers would logically come in together with the attackers and place themselves somwhere in top and top right areas (downhill) of the map.

I don't mean to really insist on it either, but just for the record I meant for the Russians to lend a few bazookas or soldierswith bazookas only (kind of like obtaining mortars in original campaigns), not share the whole technology (which is why killing those few soliders would solve the problem). The idea is that after a few attacks stopped by Heike they would try to improvise - convince the Russians (Kozlov?) to let them use teleportation tech to make a shortcut to American base, bypassing Heikes defences. If they gathered a solid squad and attacked from an unexpected direction, they just might suceed in taking over the lab and research and then escape the same way they entered.
If that doesn't go then there's still room for one secondary objective left to fill.

From the script:

Legion attack with soldiers, mortars, scientists, apemen driven vehicles and remotely controlled vehicles

Attacking with soldiers may look a little strange considering the attackers were supposed to ride across some distance before even geting to the site. And why not attack with maual vehicles? That would add more diversity: remote ones can be disabled by destroying control tower, manual ones would be the strongest but fewest and retreating when damaged plus can be potentially taken over and ape vehicles would have no such weaknesses but are least effective for it.

About the base layout: it would be good to somehow justify why the research base wasn't build on top of that southern hill in the first place. Maybe lack of suitable space to build much of the major buildings?

Ar14: Is killing Kozlov really necesary? I think he is somewhat unrelated to the Arabian part of the story, so he could be let go (in fact he wouldn't necesarily have to be mentioned by name). That would also keep the threat of the bomb alive in the last mission adding a time limit of some sort, otherwise it makes for a unique last mission. Also could relate to this:

Powell would probably fire the siberite bomb into the motherlode if he got sufficiently desperate so either JMM should lead the Americans (how would Alliance get artifact 3 then?) or the Americans doesn't develop the siberite bomb at all

Americans shouldn't have a ready acces to a bomb since both their research bases got destroyed. They would be preoccupied with Kozlov and Legion in this case, for some part of Ar15, and then maybe taken over their research starting to make a bomb themselves. That does give the player some time to attack the motherlode and the bomb threat justifies the need to hurry in both parts of Ar15.

Ar15:

In the preparation phase, would the nearby Alliance base attack the player? If they knew about the contamination tech? Why is Alliance here anyway and not at the motherlode

They should be just about to leave but they might want Arabian artifact. Altough that means they would attack the player to get it. In case they didn't realise the Arabians are ready to contaminate the motherlode they might offer to trade. Other than that I can only think it's the matter of timing. They either don't know the location of motherlode yet or are preparing like the Arabians are. That would mean the player would have to hurry to takeover the artifacts.

[McBenn]

I don't mean to really insist on it either, but just for the record I meant for the Russians to lend a few bazookas or soldierswith bazookas only (kind of like obtaining mortars in original campaigns), not share the whole technology (which is why killing those few soliders would solve the problem). The idea is that after a few attacks stopped by Heike they would try to improvise - convince the Russians (Kozlov?) to let them use teleportation tech to make a shortcut to American base, bypassing Heikes defences. If they gathered a solid squad and attacked from an unexpected direction, they just might suceed in taking over the lab and research and then escape the same way they entered.

I doubt the teleporting will work but you've got a point with Legion trying to bypass Heike's defences and reach the American base anyway. In the beginning they would attack only Heike but after some time they give up that strategy and try to attack the Americans directly. They would probably make decoy attacks on Heike's base at the same time as they send units into the valley. Since it's a main objective to prevent both Legion and Americans to get the bomb the player will have to defend two fronts at the same time, so to speak: Heike's base and the entrances to the valley.

If that doesn't go then there's still room for one secondary objective left to fill.

Hm let's sum up the objectives for Ar12:
Main - Contaminate siberite deposit.
Main - Stop Legion and Americans from getting a bomb.
Main - Keep at least one prisoner.
Secondary - Dismantle implosion vehicle. (Medal)
Secondary - Bring contaminating scientist to sib lab. (Medal)
Secondary - Let no Legion units reach the American base?
Secondary - Bring back [some number] prisoners?

And for Ar13
Main - Protect the retreating units.
Main - Keep at least one prisoner.
Secondary - Save all retreating units.
Secondary - Make artifact measurements.
Secondary - Tame a tiger / mastodon?
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Attacking with soldiers may look a little strange considering the attackers were supposed to ride across some distance before even geting to the site. And why not attack with maual vehicles? That would add more diversity: remote ones can be disabled by destroying control tower, manual ones would be the strongest but fewest and retreating when damaged plus can be potentially taken over and ape vehicles would have no such weaknesses but are least effective for it.

We can add some manual vehicles all right. Perhaps excluding them on hard so the player has nothing to capture? About the human attacks, well, Legion is in the vicinity. They have more or less laid siege to the American base. Having human attackers also add diversity. And, getting back to a former topic, if the Russians are willing to lend Legion bazookers for teleport-jumping can't they also lend for attacking Heike? It's just a convenient way of indicating that Legion and Russians are working together here.

About the base layout: it would be good to somehow justify why the research base wasn't build on top of that southern hill in the first place. Maybe lack of suitable space to build much of the major buildings?

Hm what about there is no siberite source?

Ar14: Is killing Kozlov really necesary? I think he is somewhat unrelated to the Arabian part of the story, so he could be let go (in fact he wouldn't necesarily have to be mentioned by name). That would also keep the threat of the bomb alive in the last mission adding a time limit of some sort, otherwise it makes for a unique last mission. Also could relate to this:

Powell would probably fire the siberite bomb into the motherlode if he got sufficiently desperate so either JMM should lead the Americans (how would Alliance get artifact 3 then?) or the Americans doesn't develop the siberite bomb at all

Americans shouldn't have a ready acces to a bomb since both their research bases got destroyed. They would be preoccupied with Kozlov and Legion in this case, for some part of Ar15, and then maybe taken over their research starting to make a bomb themselves. That does give the player some time to attack the motherlode and the bomb threat justifies the need to hurry in both parts of Ar15.

That's clever. After saving Gensher he could tell that Kozlov got away. And the Americans trying to steal the bomb from Legion in Ar15 is very plausible since, as you say, their bomb research was crushed.

They should be just about to leave but they might want Arabian artifact. Altough that means they would attack the player to get it. In case they didn't realise the Arabians are ready to contaminate the motherlode they might offer to trade. Other than that I can only think it's the matter of timing. They either don't know the location of motherlode yet or are preparing like the Arabians are. That would mean the player would have to hurry to takeover the artifacts.

Since the Arabs have kept moving their bases it seems most likely that Alliance wouldn't know they were there. Getting ready to attack sounds fine to me. But I think whether the player decides to attack them or not they should not be present on the final map since they won't have time to set up a proper base. Either that or they are setting up base as the player arrives.

Btw about artifact number 5. I think we discussed this somewhere but I can't find it. Didn't we agree it wasn't stolen by Alliance (from mud river bases) but brought to New Kaaba (and probably mentioned in the beginning of Ar12) and then taken by Alliance as they attack New Kaaba?

Regarding the use of artifacts on the final map in Ar15, how is that gonna work in practise? I suppose they bring the artifacts with them in cargo bays. Are they able to use them from just there or will they have to build a siberite lab? The latter would make sense but would kinda ruin the "rush tactic".

In Ar12 you probably start with 7-8 units and then get 4-5 as reinforcements. Ar13 continues straight off Ar12 in the sense that it would make most sense that Heike brings all 12 (or so) units with her into Ar13. This is too many units if the player is meant to get reinforcements from Omar later also. A proper number would be 7-8 units so what do you say Heike only brings her starting units with her into Ar13 from Ar12 (i.e. not the reinforcements)?

[0dd1]

Going directly for Americans is a good way to make the mission progressively more difficult. It wolud become harder to stop the Legion if they start to just run along Heike's defence line. Splitting attacking force to go for Heike, maybe attack her base from the south and at the same time have other squad going straight for the Americans also sounds good. Only balancing it may be tricky: Americans must be strong egnough to be challenging to destroy by the player, but then a few Legion vehicles wouldn't be a threat to it, so the player wouldn't have to bother with stoping them.
About attacking with people: Giving them bazookas doesn't sound unreasonable, but consider the layout - the hill Heike is on would probably have to be pretty big, that means all players fortifications will have quite a range. People aren't as fast or resiliant as vehicles, so they are likely to be too easy target. They would have more chance to do some damage comming from south, directly at Heike, accompanied by vehicles of course. How about restrictiong them to that route?
Speaking of sharing thechnology, could the player have acces to some American equipment? A heavy gun turret would be helpful considering the player cannot easily get down the hill so mortars or mines won't be easily used, especially against those that would ignore the player and go right for Americans. Maybe the Arabians could also find some sniper rifle(s) in their armoury, allowing the player to have a limited (depending on difficulty?) number of snipers. This wouldn't be too different from getting Arabian tech for one mission in original campaigns.
Preventing the capture of vehicles can also be done by self destruction at the last moment.

Hm what about there is no siberite source?

They could have build the main base on top of the hill, making it a real fortress and set up a small minig base below. Altough if there was no oil either it could be more likely.

Since the Arabs have kept moving their bases it seems most likely that Alliance wouldn't know they were there.

Might be another way to customise the course of the mission - if the player deals with the Alliance in the first part they wouldn't appear in the second, but if not the Alliance could catch up to them at the motherlode though that would mean no base for them as You say.

From previous page:

Why would they not recognize American/Russian weapon and soldiers? They could only be puzzled if they saw them working together, but is that even necessary? It kind of spoils the suprise attack on New Kaaba and the artifact 5 could be claimed from there along with Gossudarov.

Dunno if it spoils the surprise attack, heralds it perhaps. Anyway I'm good with letting noone attack the Arab bases from Am11 and just let Alliance attack New Kaaba to both capture artifact 5 and free Gossudarov. Artifact 5 should just be mentioned somewhere so the player knows Alliance has taken it. It could be as late as when Heike is informed that New Kaaba has fallen.

I guess we did.

Some of the effects might be constant without the need to use the artifacts at all. Otherwise it depends on SAIL limitations. They should be able to readily use them, without any further research, but if there has to be a lab involved, can there not be some small base to be easily taken over? That would save building a base.

In Ar12 you probably start with 7-8 units and then get 4-5 as reinforcements

Maybe a little more than that since the player would be attacked from various directions, possibly two at a time and then effectively separate into two teams.
It would be simply strange not to bring all of her people along to Ar13 unless some reason comes up. But it's not necesarily too much - the idea is to keep the players force mobile which will require a large map. If it can only be arranged that the player has to split and stretch the troops accross the map it shouldn't be a problem.

[McBenn]

Going directly for Americans is a good way to make the mission progressively more difficult. It wolud become harder to stop the Legion if they start to just run along Heike's defence line. Splitting attacking force to go for Heike, maybe attack her base from the south and at the same time have other squad going straight for the Americans also sounds good. Only balancing it may be tricky: Americans must be strong egnough to be challenging to destroy by the player, but then a few Legion vehicles wouldn't be a threat to it, so the player wouldn't have to bother with stoping them.

The balancing would be a major problem, especially because the AI doesn't attack as intelligently as the player so the Legion forces would have to be quite powerful making it virtually impossible for the player to stop them. I see a number of solutions: You can cheat e.g. by blowing up American defences as Legion attack them (this actually happens in Ar15a when the Americans destroy Alliance). Or Legion members in American vehicles in American disguises can try to sneak past Heike's defences, infiltrate the American base (telling they are reinforcements) and then run away with the results (so the player has two opportunities to stop them). I like the last one better.

About attacking with people: Giving them bazookas doesn't sound unreasonable, but consider the layout - the hill Heike is on would probably have to be pretty big, that means all players fortifications will have quite a range. People aren't as fast or resiliant as vehicles, so they are likely to be too easy target. They would have more chance to do some damage comming from south, directly at Heike, accompanied by vehicles of course. How about restrictiong them to that route?

I should have made it clear that was what I meant. They will ofc attack from the not-so-sloped side.

Speaking of sharing thechnology, could the player have acces to some American equipment? A heavy gun turret would be helpful considering the player cannot easily get down the hill so mortars or mines won't be easily used, especially against those that would ignore the player and go right for Americans. Maybe the Arabians could also find some sniper rifle(s) in their armoury, allowing the player to have a limited (depending on difficulty?) number of snipers. This wouldn't be too different from getting Arabian tech for one mission in original campaigns.

There should be some leftover American turrets with e.g. a heavy gun or laser but I don't think the player should be allowed to build it himself/herself. I would like the player to be kinda forced to plant some mines to defend himself/herself. The sniper sounds good. Something like [3,2,1][difficulty] snipers allowed. That ofc requires an American barracks in the base (could just be armoury and the player then has to upgrade it).

Preventing the capture of vehicles can also be done by self destruction at the last moment.

Good point.

Some of the effects might be constant without the need to use the artifacts at all. Otherwise it depends on SAIL limitations. They should be able to readily use them, without any further research, but if there has to be a lab involved, can there not be some small base to be easily taken over? That would save building a base.

You can almost always find a way in SAIL if you're creative enough. I'll add a note about it in the manuscript. Depending on the layout of the mission it may not be inappropriate to have the player build or take over a small base to be able to use the artifacts.

Maybe a little more than that since the player would be attacked from various directions, possibly two at a time and then effectively separate into two teams.
It would be simply strange not to bring all of her people along to Ar13 unless some reason comes up. But it's not necesarily too much - the idea is to keep the players force mobile which will require a large map. If it can only be arranged that the player has to split and stretch the troops accross the map it shouldn't be a problem.

Hm maybe it won't be a problem, but it's worth taking into account.

[0dd1]

Or Legion members in American vehicles in American disguises can try to sneak past Heike's defences

That fits perfectly. Sets target priorities for the player and goes around the balance problem. I assume You refer back to this: (Your idea few posts back)

When the cargo bay arrives the guy/gal with the best American accent becomes driver and a bunch of soldiers hides in the back of the truck. When inside the American base hell breaks loose.

because if there are a bunch of vehicles and only one gets past Heikes defences, that means one man alone would be staging the supprise attack. If we say (in one of the in game dialogues, otherwise it might look weird) that there are more soldiers transported in cargo that solves that. Only problem is, it would work only once at best. If Legion actually manages to steal the data and gets stopped by Heike on their way out, the Americans would be fooled like that again. Besides if the research gets stolen Americans would have to start from scratch so neither Legion nor the Arabians wouldn't need to be in such a hurry to stop them.

I know You wanted to wait with any practical work, but it seems like all we did for pas month is just talk (must be quite boring - nobody else even speaks up anymore! ). I wanted to see all the proportions in practice and played about with the editor a little.

Spoiler:

12_all_layers.JPG (26.02 KiB) Viewed 5146 times

Of course it's hardly finnished, but does it look like what we've been talking about so far? Should I go on with it, or leave it to someone more competent?

[McBenn]

That fits perfectly. Sets target priorities for the player and goes around the balance problem. (...) because if there are a bunch of vehicles and only one gets past Heikes defences, that means one man alone would be staging the supprise attack. If we say (in one of the in game dialogues, otherwise it might look weird) that there are more soldiers transported in cargo that solves that. Only problem is, it would work only once at best. If Legion actually manages to steal the data and gets stopped by Heike on their way out, the Americans would be fooled like that again. Besides if the research gets stolen Americans would have to start from scratch so neither Legion nor the Arabians wouldn't need to be in such a hurry to stop them.

It wasn't meant as a trojan horse attack but rather a sneaky infiltration which can easily be carried out by one person. And you have a point with it not working twice. Legion could keep trying until they finally get one through and when he/she is gonna escape they will launch attacks both from south and from the southern and eastern entrance to secure his/her escape. If that fails (which it must) they cannot start over again and send more undercover agents.

I want at least the general outline of each mission to be done before starting on the actual work simply because until then we may want to change a mission to fit the concept of another. Ar12 and Ar13 are pretty well defined. Ar14 have the general layout. Ar15 is still vague and unclear. But I'm not gonna hold you back if you can't stop creating maps for Ar12 or Ar13
Someone more competent. We don't have that luxury Since this is purely voluntary work we would have to sit around and wait for someone to show up.
Regarding the map my first thought was "damn it's huge". But that's probably because I tend to create too small maps. But it does look like what we were aiming at. You just go on with that. I have some comments:
Be careful of the width of the entrances. It should be possible for a turret in Heike's base to fire all the way across. You may have to do some research here to find the shooting distance for typical weapons given the present hight difference.
Why is it possible to bypass Heike's base and attack the Americans directly from the south? (taking the left turn by the big rock).
The hill Heike's base is on should perhaps slope a little to the south. And imo there should be "obstacles" like holes, stones, trees etc. to make use of mines (and perhaps cameras) viable.
You could consider some assymetric hills in the control tower area (upper right corner), i.e. you can climb the hill from one side but not another. That would make it easier for legion to defend. Maybe even make space for some breastworks.
Be careful about small and local hight variations. One hex raised by height 2 will neither be felt by the player nor included in the GBI (not likely at least because it's too much of a bother). It's better to stick to general lines and larger variations, like if you want to create a small hill either make it broad or very steep.

[0dd1]

The quality of the image went lower than I thought, so maybe few things do look unclear.
The entrances are about as big as the range of a gatlin gun, that's the first thing I checked. It's not supposed to be possible to bypass Heikes defences from the south. I just felt covering that with a wall of rock woud look too unnatural, I'll make it unpassable. Assymetric hills - again fault of the quality i think. The hills are actually so steep, there are only few narrow passages there, wide egnough for a vehicle (looks like some maze in fact). It's just that I didn't covered all that with rock yet.

Again I'm thinikg about a bypass of Heikes defences - if rocket teleportation doesn't go, how about just a narrow pathway allowing people to cross the hills in upper part of the map? Like later in game they would start sending mortars and soldiers(those would probably have to be made to use mines) straight at the Americans. Intercepting those would give the player a chance to put that found sniper rifle to use, it could also serve as an escape route by the Legion infiltrator. The attacks from south and east like You mentioned would be a distraction, and some other forces would come to secure the passage at the same time. Only I can't explain why Legion wouldn't use that way to get into the American base in the first place.

I'm also thinking about starting some raw testing for Ar13: we need to have a clear and extensive idea about the exact types and configurations of units used, both of Arabians and Russians, to make full use of all Arabian merits and make it challenging for the player.

[McBenn]

Again I'm thinikg about a bypass of Heikes defences - if rocket teleportation doesn't go, how about just a narrow pathway allowing people to cross the hills in upper part of the map? Like later in game they would start sending mortars and soldiers(those would probably have to be made to use mines) straight at the Americans. Intercepting those would give the player a chance to put that found sniper rifle to use, it could also serve as an escape route by the Legion infiltrator. The attacks from south and east like You mentioned would be a distraction, and some other forces would come to secure the passage at the same time. Only I can't explain why Legion wouldn't use that way to get into the American base in the first place.

Ok how would that rocket teleportation then work exactly? I suppose they would port over the hills in the northeastern area ending up directly east of the American base. They would then attacks and eliminate the Americans and perhaps port back the other way again. Mission lost. How should the player detect this plot? And can't it be abused? Just let Legion take care of the Americans so they won't build the bomb and then take out the remaining Legion attackers? What about the final American attackers - wouldn't they show up then (since there is no base to defend any more)?

I'm also thinking about starting some raw testing for Ar13: we need to have a clear and extensive idea about the exact types and configurations of units used, both of Arabians and Russians, to make full use of all Arabian merits and make it challenging for the player.

Actually I was thinking if you could be interested in creating that mission? After all it's based entirely on your concept and it should be fairly easy to code (at least compared to some other missions in the campaign). As you say the balancing is gonna be a bit tricky though

I have been thinking some more about Ar15. What is the map gonna look like? Am15 depicts the western side of the motherlode, Ru15 the eastern and Ar15a the southern. The northern doesn't seem so attractive since the Russians will have a hard time defending such a defence line (gentle sloping and that mountain range going straight north-south as seen in Ru15). I was thinking maybe the map for Ru15 could be used. First the lower 1/5 has to be cut away so the player can't attack the motherlode from the south (too easy). This also cuts away where Legion have their base in Ru15. Legion would be on the eastern hill, the Americans on the northern. Hm well what about Alliance then if you didn't eliminate them in the first part of the mission? Either we could come up with some reason the player has to eliminate them no matter what or they could just set up camp "outside" the map and port units in with teleporters or something like that. Since they show up later than the player (presumably) the idea with them setting up a base where the player can reach them (that is "inside" the map) could be a problem as the player can easily wipe them out before they do so.
Anyway some details regarding the gameplay. Since noone wants the siberite destroyed both Americans and Legion could attack the player if he/she attacks the Russians. In that way the player may have to eliminate Legion and/or the Americans before he/she can efficiently attack the Russians. And about these attacks: We discussed before that the map could be designed to favour one kind of weapon (not just mortars). The vehicles participating in these attacks could all have weapons that can fire while moving (double guns, lasers, rocket launchers etc.) and the vehicles would keep in motion so they are harder to hit with mortars thus facouring soldiers and vehicles with guns.
About the siberite bomb would could say that Legion would develop it first. If they do so they try to force everyone to surrender but both Platonov and Powell refuses. And then they shoot it into the Russian base since they are the biggest threat causing the player to lose (I assume they wouldn't know about the consequences since Alliance haven't been present). The Americans would do the same when they develop theirs. When the Russians get their bomb Heike simply surrenders.
I'm begining to think that the player shouldn't be able to build or capture a base at all. This should feel like an "all in" rush mission. There is no time or space for building a base. This would mean the artifacts' powers can somehow be used without expending siberite which somehow contradicts all other missions with artifacts. Perhaps it can be justified by the fact that these powers are different from any other powers we have seen so far and they just happen to be "free of charge".
And another small detail: Maybe we should allow Omar to turn into one of the normal classes so he won't be useless in the final part of the mission.

[0dd1]

Ok, teleportation is out of the question, but what about a single passage just for human attackers? I wouldn't be concerned with difficulty about detecting it, the secondary objective of capturing a vehicle bomb demands that the player sends some units into that area so the passage could be detected right there. Anyway the player should be alert for such Legion tricks in this situation (might be said in dialogues).

Just let Legion take care of the Americans so they won't build the bomb and then take out the remaining Legion attackers?

The same thing could be said about the regular Legion attacks. I'm beginning to think the mission should be lost right after Legion gains access to the American base.

A side note: have You thought about implementing the use of self destruction by the AI? Actually using it in attack would probably by too much trouble than it's worth, but how about a simple trick, like exploding a burning vehicle when some human unit happens to approach it (could say he was seen by biodetection)? Self destruction doesn't require any control over vehicle, wheather remote or manual strangely egnough, so something like this wouldn't interfere with code about remote controlling that is already in place.

I don't think Ru15 would fit here. Simply too open and feels like it would spoil the "mobility" of the mission. The northern part of the motherlode doesn't have to be immediately accesed by the player and even then it still could be heavily fortified. As it was suggested before, a layout of placing other sides in players way would be a good solution. Maybe something like this:

Ar15.JPG

(33.62 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Where the Arabians would arrive at the top, and could try to go through the Americans; going past top Russian defences (which are meant to be on high ground) and try to fight past or through Legion, before going to the Motherlode itself; fightting the Russians all the way down; or even boldly charge over the river in hovercrafts, reaching the motherlode right away but then having to fight only with soldiers. The map could be even more narrow and stretched to the top (and some more bases added), because it clearly determines a limited number of approaches. The computer shouldnt be too docile either - if the player was to be attacked as well as attacking it would only add more fun to the game.
I think the Alliance should only appear once, like comming from behind at the player while he engages some enemy to the south, because they wouldn't really have time to build a base. Besides it fits the missions "mobile" plan.
The different paths should favour different weaponry, but what I've written there was jus an example, I don't think it will be as simple as that. I don't have any specific ideas at the moment, but the concept seems to be very similar to Ar13. Once i get some work done on that hpefully some ideas may be translated into Ar15.

[McBenn]

Ok, teleportation is out of the question, but what about a single passage just for human attackers? I wouldn't be concerned with difficulty about detecting it, the secondary objective of capturing a vehicle bomb demands that the player sends some units into that area so the passage could be detected right there. Anyway the player should be alert for such Legion tricks in this situation (might be said in dialogues).

Just let Legion take care of the Americans so they won't build the bomb and then take out the remaining Legion attackers?

The same thing could be said about the regular Legion attacks. I'm beginning to think the mission should be lost right after Legion gains access to the American base.

I thought the regular attacks were only aimed at Heike? Anyway we may have to do something like that but perhaps it would work best with the "infiltrator" idea. It would look funny if the player lost just because a single mortar reached the American base but an infiltrator could send out the plans for the bomb (via radio or something). These infiltrators could both try to reach the base via vehicle (trying to pass Heike's defences as mentioned before) or on foot via some secret passage as you say. I guess on easier difficulties Legion won't use the passage.

A side note: have You thought about implementing the use of self destruction by the AI? Actually using it in attack would probably by too much trouble than it's worth, but how about a simple trick, like exploding a burning vehicle when some human unit happens to approach it (could say he was seen by biodetection)? Self destruction doesn't require any control over vehicle, wheather remote or manual strangely egnough, so something like this wouldn't interfere with code about remote controlling that is already in place.

Ofc ofc.

Ar15:
That doesn't sound too bad. Multiple ways of reaching the motherlode having to pick who to fight to get there. That map looks promising.

[0dd1]

I thought the regular attacks were only aimed at Heike?

Yes, that was the case. Sorry I'm getting a little disorganized here. Sending the plans remotely by an infiltrator in the base sounds good. As an explanation, Heike could try to get some prisoner to talk after seeing one of Legions American vehicles for the first time. Some hints given that way would end in conclusion that none of Legions diquised units can reach the base or game's over. Sounds good?

Artifacts in Ar15 can still be fueled by siberite - simply give the player an option of taking some cargos with sib to second part of the mission. The stock would then become slowly depleted over time, or along with artifact uses, depending on what kind of techs will be applied. Giving the player freedom in choosing exactly how much to take along would work best, since the total amount available should relate to resources taken in Ar14 and naturally, the more of it will be used up by the artifacts the fewer siberite engines the player can have.

[McBenn]

Infiltrator strategy it is.

Artifacts in Ar15: Noted.

The plan begins to look pretty ok. Ar15 is still somewhat a question but since it's only closely tied to Ar14 I think we can begin working on Ar12 and Ar13. I hope you're up for Ar13. I can take care of Ar12. Just PM me the map for Ar12 when you're done with it (or just send it unfinnished and I'll take care of the rest).

[vanimpe]

I have read Pro-Arab manuscript. Plot is really interesting, but in my opinion mission 14 seems to be too long. In my opinion we shouldn't rescue Gensher (it should be Omar's task - but he will be too late). Gensher should die. Legion hates Gensher (as we see in mission 13 pro-Legion) and their first objective would be his death. That would be more dramatic for player (Arabs lost New Kaaba, New Samarkand, Hassan, Gensher and Abdul) - that's why they are weak. Lust for revenge should be the main reason why Genscher won't survive.

Rolf Bergkamp should be used in maybe mission 14 (as a traitor of course and hmm... the reason why Genscher died).

Who will stay with Heike and Arabs?
Definitely, Kurt Schmidt, Bodenhof should be with Legion.

What's about Hans Gluckman and/or Oskar Butler from the first mission?